ok I'm a bit confused. Yellow Belly..Spector..Superstripe WHAT!

Ok so I came across nixer's thread of "what should I get next" and saw a few posts with spector in it and that he has one already. I understand that there is a lot to find out about that morph. But, I still have some questions that some of you might be able to help me with.

The Superstripe is a Spector x Yellow Belly, Yes?

If superstripe x superstripe has been done, does it produce YB, Spectors and more superstripes?

That is all for now I think. TIA for any answers.
Andrew

It is way confusing :)

Spector/Whirlwind/het superstripe is all the same thing. The other 1/2 of the puzzle to make a superstripe.

Superstripe is a spector and yellowbelly. The superstripe breedings so far have shown that the superstripe is a super form of two different morphs that reside on the same allele (just like a mojave/lesser leucy) because all of the offspring was either spector or yellowbelly from superstripe to normal breedings.

SO....if that's true then a Superstripe bred to a Superstripe would produce:
1/4 Ivories
1/2 Superstripes
1/4 Super Spectors (which I believe hasn't been done)

Coolest breeding IMO would be Ivory to Super spector.....all superstripes! :)

Hope that helps :)

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Originally Posted by jpman78

It is way confusing :)

Spector/Whirlwind/het superstripe is all the same thing. The other 1/2 of the puzzle to make a superstripe.

Superstripe is a spector and yellowbelly. The superstripe breedings so far have shown that the superstripe is a super form of two different morphs that reside on the same allele (just like a mojave/lesser leucy) because all of the offspring was either spector or yellowbelly from superstripe to normal breedings.

SO....if that's true then a Superstripe bred to a Superstripe would produce:
1/4 Ivories
1/2 Superstripes
1/4 Super Spectors (which I believe hasn't been done)

Coolest breeding IMO would be Ivory to Super spector.....all superstripes! :)

Hope that helps :)

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I don't think it's THAT confusing. Specter and whirlwind are just different lines of the same mutation. Like Sulfur and Fire or Butter and Lesser.

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Originally Posted by Whoodnballs

Ok so I came across nixer's thread of "what should I get next" and saw a few posts with spector in it and that he has one already. I understand that there is a lot to find out about that morph. But, I still have some questions that some of you might be able to help me with.

The Superstripe is a Spector x Yellow Belly, Yes?

If superstripe x superstripe has been done, does it produce YB, Spectors and more superstripes?

That is all for now I think. TIA for any answers.
Andrew

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oh sure blame me, its always nixers fault!:rofl::rofl::rofl:
yes the superstripe is a yellowbelly spector
superstripe x superstripe would give you superstripes, yb , ivory, spectors, and normal

now for the interesting part alot of ppl are still not quite sure how the spector reacts with the yb. so no one is sure if there is a super spector or not, but personally i dont believe there is.

The only confusing part of the Superstripe is:

#1. A Superstripe CANNOT reproduce itself.
#2. Superstripe x Normal = Yellowbellies, Spectors/whirlwinds, and NORMALS!

Trey Barnard (mxrider42) and I had an extensive conversation with Tom Carlton about Super Stripes and those were the 2 points we mainly talked about.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

The only confusing part of the Superstripe is:

#1. A Superstripe CANNOT reproduce itself.
#2. Superstripe x Normal = Yellowbellies, Spectors/whirlwinds, and NORMALS!

Trey Barnard (mxrider42) and I had an extensive conversation with Tom Carlton about Super Stripes and those were the 2 points we mainly talked about.

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that is whats kind of nice about the whole superstripe, but this just kinda proves to the point we still know little about bp genetics. i love these curves.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

The only confusing part of the Superstripe is:

#1. A Superstripe CANNOT reproduce itself.
#2. Superstripe x Normal = Yellowbellies, Spectors/whirlwinds, and NORMALS!

Trey Barnard (mxrider42) and I had an extensive conversation with Tom Carlton about Super Stripes and those were the 2 points we mainly talked about.

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This makes me think that YB and spector are not on the same allelle but maybe a gene combination? But if that was the case, they would be able to reproduce themselves... Wow... This goes against everything I've learned about genetics....

Anyone see any patterns with the sex of the snakes? Maybe it is a sex linked trait?

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Originally Posted by JenH

This makes me think that YB and spector are not on the same allelle but maybe a gene combination? But if that was the case, they would be able to reproduce themselves... Wow... This goes against everything I've learned about genetics....

Anyone see any patterns with the sex of the snakes? Maybe it is a sex linked trait?

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there is both males and females in the superstripe.

from my view of it and how the yb gene does some wierd stuff, but then again we cannot rule out that there are many other genes that do wierd things. heck look at the crystal, platty daddys, hidden gene womas

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Originally Posted by JenH

This makes me think that YB and spector are not on the same allelle but maybe a gene combination? But if that was the case, they would be able to reproduce themselves... Wow... This goes against everything I've learned about genetics....

Anyone see any patterns with the sex of the snakes? Maybe it is a sex linked trait?

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I don't think it's anything like that, I think there is simply more to the genetics of ball pythons than we think. If anything think about how many "Not genetic" mutations that are out there that may in fact be genetic but they just don't carry the "Genetic code" needed to recreate themselves without a 3rd party gene.

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I don't think it's anything like that, I think there is simply more to the genetics of ball pythons than we think. If anything think about how many "Not genetic" mutations that are out there that may in fact be genetic but they just don't carry the "Genetic code" needed to recreate themselves without a 3rd party gene.

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i couldnt of put it better myself

Huh. I guess that's different than what I heard. #1 I heard is true. But my discussions about SS have been that SS to normal = spectors and ybs? I have heard that the spectors are hard to pick out....maybe some have been confused for normals?

Hopefully there are a handful of SS to ivory breedings that would shed some light on the debacle. I know Bruce Delles of TCR has that breeding in the works for this coming season.

I'm hoping a super spector is in the cards.....would really make the breeding possibilities cooler imo :)

Genetics keep things interesting for sure!

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Originally Posted by AaronP

The only confusing part of the Superstripe is:

#1. A Superstripe CANNOT reproduce itself.
#2. Superstripe x Normal = Yellowbellies, Spectors/whirlwinds, and NORMALS!

Trey Barnard (mxrider42) and I had an extensive conversation with Tom Carlton about Super Stripes and those were the 2 points we mainly talked about.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JenH

This makes me think that YB and spector are not on the same allelle but maybe a gene combination? But if that was the case, they would be able to reproduce themselves... Wow... This goes against everything I've learned about genetics....?

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Thats waht I thought at first was an incomplete dominance, and I'm still thinking that in a sence. a kind of incomplete dominance combined with muted genes. make sence?

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Originally Posted by nixer

oh sure blame me, its always nixers fault!:rofl::rofl::rofl:
yes the superstripe is a yellowbelly spector
superstripe x superstripe would give you superstripes, yb , ivory, spectors, and normal

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yup alll your falt nixer :P :D
the superstripe x superstripe would also produce super spector, yes?
And has that cross been done that you know of? If so do you know if any slugs were produced in the clutch

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Originally Posted by AaronP

The only confusing part of the Superstripe is:

#1. A Superstripe CANNOT reproduce itself.
#2. Superstripe x Normal = Yellowbellies, Spectors/whirlwinds, and NORMALS!

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Would those normals produced from the superstripe x normal be het. for superstripe?

I'd like to see what a spector crossed with Ben Siegel's Graphite ball or the orangebelly that helped produce it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AaronP

I don't think it's anything like that, I think there is simply more to the genetics of ball pythons than we think. If anything think about how many "Not genetic" mutations that are out there that may in fact be genetic but they just don't carry the "Genetic code" needed to recreate themselves without a 3rd party gene.

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So basically what you are saying is.....The more we breed normal looking offspring the more we are gonig to find?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AaronP

#2. Superstripe x Normal = Yellowbellies, Spectors/whirlwinds, and NORMALS!

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If that's the case then they aren't allelic to each other. As you'd have a yb and spector copy on the locus on each chromosome. So all off spring would be either yb or spector, which if you're correct, is not the case.

This is bizarre if what you say is really true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AaronP

#1. A Superstripe CANNOT reproduce itself.
#2. Superstripe x Normal = Yellowbellies, Spectors/whirlwinds, and NORMALS!

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I would assume #1 and #2(specifically the part about normals) would be contradictory.

I know Tom Carlton breed a Super Stripe to Yellow Belly and produced a normal (Check Clutch 2). It is a very crazy combo and we should be learning a lot in the near future (if people let out the info)!
Trey

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Originally Posted by mxrider42

I know Tom Carlton breed a Super Stripe to Yellow Belly and produced a normal (Check Clutch 2). It is a very crazy combo and we should be learning a lot in the near future (if people let out the info)!
Trey

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Did he prove it out to be a normal? I'd bet it would be a spector. Did he also get Yb, Superstripes, and Ivorys in that cross?

Edit: rxrider i just saw the link there and check. Interesting clutch.

I saw that. Confusing for sure. There are two breedings of SS to YB that he had and he got one ivory and no SS. I guess you can miss being it's only 1 in 4 odds and with that few eggs quite possible to miss....but would have been helpful to see a SS somewhere in there to see things happening how you'd think?

Fun fun. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mxrider42

I know Tom Carlton breed a Super Stripe to Yellow Belly and produced a normal (Check Clutch 2). It is a very crazy combo and we should be learning a lot in the near future (if people let out the info)!
Trey

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by jpman78

I saw that. Confusing for sure. There are two breedings of SS to YB that he had and he got one ivory and no SS. I guess you can miss being it's only 1 in 4 odds and with that few eggs quite possible to miss....but would have been helpful to see a SS somewhere in there to see things happening how you'd think?

Fun fun. :)

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Exactly. I hope to see more of this combo and it's counterpart crosses to.

Fun fun for sure... thats why I want to get into breeding bps.

One would assume that if it were a normal double co-dom that a SS x Normal would yield 25% Spector 25% YB and 50% Normal....

What is leading everyone to assume that no normals are possible from that pairing? :confused:

Is it because no Super Spector has been created so it is presumably Dominant?

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Originally Posted by mainbutter

I would assume #1 and #2(specifically the part about normals) would be contradictory.

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You're right. It would be.

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

One would assume that if it were a normal double co-dom that a SS x Normal would yield 25% Spector 25% YB and 50% Normal....

What is leading everyone to assume that no normals are possible from that pairing? :confused:

Is it because no Super Spector has been created so it is presumably Dominant?

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Actually if it is allelic to each other and at the same locus, then a SS x normal would = yellow belly or spector/mystery gene, no normals.

But if they're on different loci, and more like a "regular" double co-dom, then you'd expect 25% yb, 25% spector, 25% normal, and 25% SS. But since it so far can't reproduce itself, that gives credence to the idea that they're not separate genes, but different alleles.

But again, if they're just different alleles, then you wouldn't expect any normals. Unless the normals are actually just a variation in the spector/mystery gene animals - but I haven't any in person so have no idea if a mystery animal is clear cut different than a normal.

From the information that is released from those who have breed them. Super Stripes will not reproduce themselves when breed to normals and they also can produce normals. So it is not a super form (ex: super pastel) and it is not a double co-dom (ex:bumblebee). We will have to come up with a new genetic classification for them. I am not a genetic expert, there may already be a word for this. Just shows we are only scratching the surface of genetics.
trey

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Originally Posted by mxrider42

From the information that is released from those who have breed them. Super Stripes will not reproduce themselves when breed to normals and they also can produce normals. So it is not a super form (ex: super pastel) and it is not a double co-dom (ex:bumblebee). We will have to come up with a new genetic classification for them. I am not a genetic expert, there may already be a word for this. Just shows we are only scratching the surface of genetics.
trey

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If the phenotyes I'm playing around with are right the outcome that I get verifies everything you've said. However, the normals that are produced would be het for, I know this sounds wierd but, yellow belly or het for spector. In the sence that they would have a hidden gene that when crossed with a normal could produce yellow belly or spector respectively. just a shot in the dark but, but like you've all have said we are just scratching the surface here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mxrider42

From the information that is released from those who have breed them. Super Stripes will not reproduce themselves when breed to normals and they also can produce normals. So it is not a super form (ex: super pastel) and it is not a double co-dom (ex:bumblebee). We will have to come up with a new genetic classification for them. I am not a genetic expert, there may already be a word for this. Just shows we are only scratching the surface of genetics.
trey

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this is where the extra confusion is added

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Originally Posted by Whoodnballs

If the phenotyes I'm playing around with are right the outcome that I get verifies everything you've said. However, the normals that are produced would be het for, I know this sounds wierd but, yellow belly or het for spector. In the sence that they would have a hidden gene that when crossed with a normal could produce yellow belly or spector respectively. just a shot in the dark but, but like you've all have said we are just scratching the surface here.

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Seeing as YB and Specter are both co-dom they cannot be het in the recessive sense where they appear normal but carry a gene for that morph.

The only other theory is that there is actually a 3rd hidden gene or additional gene in play here, or that they are simply part of the same complex. Similiar to the BEL complex in that some produce BELs and others produce variances of the BEL (ie Mystic/Phantom/Special)

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

Seeing as YB and Specter are both co-dom they cannot be het in the recessive sense where they appear normal but carry a gene for that morph.

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well I know that. hence the "I know this sounds wierd" part...

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Originally Posted by Turbo Serpent

The only other theory is that there is actually a 3rd hidden gene or additional gene in play here, or that they are simply part of the same complex. Similiar to the BEL complex in that some produce BELs and others produce variances of the BEL (ie Mystic/Phantom/Special)

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So in a sence your saying that superstripe is equal to a BEL in terms of genetics? where YB would be similar to the phantom part of BEL where the super looks differant to the other supers or combos?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whoodnballs

If the phenotyes I'm playing around with are right the outcome that I get verifies everything you've said. However, the normals that are produced would be het for, I know this sounds wierd but, yellow belly or het for spector. In the sence that they would have a hidden gene that when crossed with a normal could produce yellow belly or spector respectively. just a shot in the dark but, but like you've all have said we are just scratching the surface here.

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I only have seen pictures of Specter/ Whirlwinds. But from everyone I talked to there is a visual difference between specters and normals.
You could be right about the hidden gene also.
They are similar to the BEL's in that they don't reproduce themselves when breed to normals but different in that they can produce normals.
Only time will tell.
Trey

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Originally Posted by Whoodnballs

well I know that. hence the "I know this sounds wierd" part...



So in a sence your saying that superstripe is equal to a BEL in terms of genetics? where YB would be similar to the phantom part of BEL where the super looks differant to the other supers or combos?

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I was referring to the fact that the BEL complex genes all fall on that same allele yet a few from the group have Supers that look nothing like the BEL (ie Mystic/Phantom and even Mojave). So the YB and the Specter could be on the same allele and their supers could be different than each other when combined.

But then the whole not reproducing itself and no normals makes this a genetics nightmare.... :confused:

Where are Lisa Staley or asplundii when you need them?

Okay, apparently I have very weak google-fu. Does anybody have a picture of a specter/whirlwind they could post? I really want to see one now!

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showthread.php?t=102135

The snake after the superstripe pics.