cage size inquery

:snake:
i was just thinking that my ball python (ting) appears to want a bit more space in his enclosure. ever since he escaped and was recaptured, it seems as tho he wants to have more room to roam about. he also has grown quite significantly over the past year and i was thinking of construcing a new enclosure for him. the one he is in now is about 25-30 gallons and he is about 3-3 1/2 feet long. most of the information i have gathered from websites and books tell me that a ball python at adult size, (3-5 feet) only needs an enclosure that is 30 gallons. does anyone have any advice or experience with sizing an enclosure for my little pal? i want him to have enough room to climb and to hide and roam to the point where he has enough freedom. i hear that if you make a snake's enclosure too large, they may get stressed. any ideas?????

so many views... so little response :(

Look for me i feel if you give them the room they will use it..i am against having a 4 foot snake in a 30 x 12 tray....if it's an adult they dont like climbing much babies do...if you want more room go with a 72 quart sterilite from target..it'll be happy in their..i only have 2 baby pastels now but growing up i had 5 normals for over ten years..before i moved out of state thne i came home to find my parent gave them away....if they have the room they will use it...

thats what i figured. ting likes to climb and roam around. so you say they got em at target? i didnt know they had a pet section over there... i was thinking of building my own with like a bookshelf built in or something cool like that. i wonder what kind of measurements i should use to make his living space. thanks for the tip

What i was saying is a tub still but just a large tub...like i said if it an adult from my experience they dont climb much...the tub size i told is like 44 x 22 x 7 more so...

Really anything under 2500 grams will do just fine in a 20 gallon. Bigger than that and then its a 30 gallon. Bigger than that will stress your little guy out pretty bad, then he may not eat!

Also, remember that while BPs occasionally like to climb, they are not "designed" to do so... and therefore they're at risk of getting hurt or stuck. When I had Delilah in a glass tank, she managed to get tangled in the light wire (it was built-in) & screen lid multiple times - then she'd THUNK to the ground when she got loose. I realized a different enclosure would be better, and she is quite happy now in her 28qt tub. My big 2000g girl is in a 41qt tub with two hides and a water dish, and also seems very content. They're not very demanding animals, and most of the fancy cages are just for our viewing pleasure. ;)

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Originally Posted by Swingline0.0.1

Really anything under 2500 grams will do just fine in a 20 gallon. Bigger than that and then its a 30 gallon. Bigger than that will stress your little guy out pretty bad, then he may not eat!

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I dont believe this to be true about stressing them out. I do believe that u should provide more hiding spaces tho. There is nothing more that i hate,then to see a large snake with 2 hides almost facing each other(looks cramped). Maybe the snake doesnt mind but i do.

You may like it, but you would want whats in the best interest of your snakes health, yes? You can still make it pretty if you want, but they do not need a large space, and yes, it will stress your snake.

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Originally Posted by Swingline0.0.1

You may like it, but you would want whats in the best interest of your snakes health, yes? You can still make it pretty if you want, but they do not need a large space, and yes, it will stress your snake.

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Needing is one thing?Saying that the cause of stress is due to the size of his enclosure and not whats in it seems crazy to me.Thats like saying its stressful for the snake to live outside where it belongs.

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Originally Posted by rthamilton

I dont believe this to be true about stressing them out. I do believe that u should provide more hiding spaces tho. There is nothing more that i hate,then to see a large snake with 2 hides almost facing each other(looks cramped). Maybe the snake doesnt mind but i do.

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That's how Mona's tub is, and I thought the same thing... so I removed one of the hides, and she seemed a little uncomfortable with the change. I put the hide back in, and could tell she immediately felt secure again. They just like cramped quarters! :oops: Here is Mona's setup:

(Toby will be sharing her tub on & off for the breeding season ;))
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...DSCF0375-1.jpg

I had to take the hides out of the tubs of my largest snakes, because they would coil up on TOP of them, instead of under them--and then I couldn't pull the tubs out, because they would tense up and brace against the shelf. lol
I was afraid they'd be injured when I pulled out the tub.

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Originally Posted by rthamilton

Needing is one thing?Saying that the cause of stress is due to the size of his enclosure and not whats in it seems crazy to me.Thats like saying its stressful for the snake to live outside where it belongs.

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It kind of is, I would assume, since they find termite mounds & other tight spots to live in... you probably wouldn't see wild BPs just hanging out in the open. :snake:

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

It kind of is, I would assume, since they find termite mounds & other tight spots to live in... you probably wouldn't see wild BPs just hanging out in the open. :snake:

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My point is that the size of the enclosure doesnt matter if u provide enough hiding places. Not that they need the space or that they will even use it. IF you had nothing to do, that doesnt mean ud wanna be locked in the house. Its nice to know you have freedom if u want it. Fighting for BP freedom everywhere :D

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Originally Posted by rthamilton

My point is that the size of the enclosure doesnt matter if u provide enough hiding places. Not that they need the space or that they will even use it. IF you had nothing to do, that doesnt mean ud wanna be locked in the house. Its nice to know you have freedom if u want it. Fighting for BP freedom everywhere :D

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You're looking at it from the point of view of a human. A BP wants to feel safe & secure and while some BPs do well in larger enclosures by no means do all do well in large spaces. In general a BP who roams during the day is considered to be stressed and most of the time making the space smaller or covered or quieter will cause them to calm back down.

They are ambush predators who spend 80-90% of their time hiding in the wild in spaces that many think of as being too small for them. They like the feeling of being secure in a dark, tight fitting space. Your opinions of space and freedom do not apply to this animal, only to you. If your biggest concern is providing the ideal environment for a BP then you should stop looking at it from a mammal's perspective.

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Originally Posted by rthamilton

My point is that the size of the enclosure doesnt matter if u provide enough hiding places. Not that they need the space or that they will even use it. IF you had nothing to do, that doesnt mean ud wanna be locked in the house. Its nice to know you have freedom if u want it. Fighting for BP freedom everywhere :D

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i could actually argue this especially since im the one that had an 300 gram albino with 2 hides and a water bowl in a 6qt tub.
why you ask? because she wouldnt eat in a bigger tub nor the 6qt tub without 2 hides.

Long as my snakes arent roaming around and eat i dont see the issue. I say to the person who post this thread to try and see what works for ur snake. And the freedom part was a joke.There is no such thing as freedom in any enclosure.

thats what i was pondering, and what has raised this question in my mind, RTHAMILTON. i figure that snakes in the wild have free range and how could a large environment like the world stress them out? if they have plenty of places to hide, i wonder how a larger enclosure would be worse for him. i just want ting to be as happy as possible. he just seems like he wants more places to go and that his body is starting to take up more space in the tank these days and i'm concerned he may feel cramped. i can see that he likes to move around a lot, and i'm sure the tank is large enough for him now. however, if he grows another foot or so, it would be hard for me to watch him try to move around in that same tank. i definately don't want to go through the process of building a new enclosure to find that he is stressed in his environment. i wonder if stress factors vary between each individual snake and their own experiences or desires. ting seems to want to climb around and get around all night. i think this is a result from his escaping experience. before he escaped, he would normally just hide out in his humidity box or under his log and come out for water only. now i see him climb his driftwood and slither all over his cage. he could just be tring to find ways to escape, which i do see him do, but i think he just has grown comfortable with his surroundings and wants to explore more. i think htat if he had more room with more things in his cage to hide under and climb on, he might have more fun and feel a bit more free. however, stop me if i'm totally wrong. i dont want to stress him out at all, just happier.

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Originally Posted by Lolo76

That's how Mona's tub is, and I thought the same thing... so I removed one of the hides, and she seemed a little uncomfortable with the change. I put the hide back in, and could tell she immediately felt secure again. They just like cramped quarters! :oops: Here is Mona's setup:

(Toby will be sharing her tub on & off for the breeding season ;))
http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p...DSCF0375-1.jpg

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i can dig it that bp's like close quarters, ting seems to like to cram himself in under the smallest things. hopefully he can stay in his same home, and dont have to build a new one!:gj:

I would not move him. From what you describe, it sounds like he is still stressed from his little adventure outside the tank.

Ball pythons are not particularly active snakes and roaming a lot, climbing the walls, is a sign that they don't feel safe in their home. They want to get OUT and find somewhere that they think is safer.

You cannot really compare captivity to in the wild. They are in your care which means you need to provide them with an environment that will make them thrive. Giving them tons and tons of space is possible. It is possible to set them up in a realistic enclosure. The problem isn't that this will stress the snake out. It is improper temps and humidity and inadequate hides that cause the problems. A bigger tank means more air to heat cool and maintain proper humidity. A bigger tank means the snake feels more exposed and needs more places to hide so it can feel safe.

Setting up a large tank will cost you hundreds of dollars. if in the end the snake is happy, it will most likely be spending ALL of its time hiding and you will NEVER see the snake moving around the cage. Makes for a kind of crappy display, don't you think?

So what looks to you like your snake wanting more room to "roam" is actually his way of telling you he doesn't like his house and he doesn't feel safe.

A Tank will fit a ball pythons needs as long as it has two tight fitting IDENTICAL hides and a water bowl. That is it. You can add fake plants and more hides, but that is really all they need to be happy and healthy snakes.

i trust you kaorta. it's been a couple months since his escape, do you think that he is sill stress from this experiencce? it just seems to me like he wants to escape again. i couldnt imagine why he wouldn't feel secure in his home. there are plenty of hiding places. his humidity box, a hollowed out log, i find him burrowed under his humidity box, under his driftwood, and he burrows in his bedding. i guess i'll keep his cage for another year or so. how do i know if he needs a lager enclosure????

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Originally Posted by TingsPaPa

i trust you kaorta. it's been a couple months since his escape, do you think that he is sill stress from this experiencce? it just seems to me like he wants to escape again. i couldnt imagine why he wouldn't feel secure in his home. there are plenty of hiding places. his humidity box, a hollowed out log, i find him burrowed under his humidity box, under his driftwood, and he burrows in his bedding. i guess i'll keep his cage for another year or so. how do i know if he needs a lager enclosure????

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Too be honest sounds like he doesnt like his hides.Got any pics,that would make this alot easier.:salute:He would rather burrow than be in his hides.All my bps stay in there hide most the time and hunt from inside their hides.

well i know he likes his hides, but at night, he tends to wander about and climb his driftwood. he used to be in his humidity box all the time, but not so much anymore. only when he sheds do i find him in there. mostly under his hollowed out log. i can take some pics.

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Originally Posted by TingsPaPa

:snake:
i was just thinking that my ball python (ting) appears to want a bit more space in his enclosure. ever since he escaped and was recaptured, it seems as tho he wants to have more room to roam about. he also has grown quite significantly over the past year and i was thinking of construcing a new enclosure for him. the one he is in now is about 25-30 gallons and he is about 3-3 1/2 feet long. most of the information i have gathered from websites and books tell me that a ball python at adult size, (3-5 feet) only needs an enclosure that is 30 gallons. does anyone have any advice or experience with sizing an enclosure for my little pal? i want him to have enough room to climb and to hide and roam to the point where he has enough freedom. i hear that if you make a snake's enclosure too large, they may get stressed. any ideas?????

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It depends on what kind of 30 gal he is in now. What are the dimensions of his tank?


Rob

I keep my BP in a 20L and she is fine all week. Meaning she moved from one hide to the next and comes out to drink. I often see her with her little head poking out of the entry to the hide but that's about it.

By about Friday night though she starts roaming and trying to coax the magic tongs to bring in a mouse. I typically feed on Saturday, earlier if she starts looking hungry on Thursday and later if it's not until Saturday. After eating it's into the warm hide and off to la la land.

I had issues getting her to feed at first so now I just wait until she looks and acts hungry and I have not had any missed feeding except for shed time. Is yours constantly roaming at night or just before feeding?

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Originally Posted by rthamilton

My point is that the size of the enclosure doesnt matter if u provide enough hiding places. Not that they need the space or that they will even use it. IF you had nothing to do, that doesnt mean ud wanna be locked in the house. Its nice to know you have freedom if u want it. Fighting for BP freedom everywhere :D

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While it may be true that you can get a snake to feel somewhat secure in a huge enclosure, for me that's not the point. If you have ever tried to maintain a perfect 82/92 with a constant 65% humidity in a very large enclosure you would quickly long for the good old days.

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Originally Posted by TingsPaPa

i trust you kaorta. it's been a couple months since his escape, do you think that he is sill stress from this experiencce? it just seems to me like he wants to escape again. i couldnt imagine why he wouldn't feel secure in his home. there are plenty of hiding places. his humidity box, a hollowed out log, i find him burrowed under his humidity box, under his driftwood, and he burrows in his bedding. i guess i'll keep his cage for another year or so. how do i know if he needs a lager enclosure????

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He may not be stressed from that particular experience, but he could be stressed out from his environment.

He has two non-identical hides. Hides are very important to ball pythons as they spend nearly all of their time in hides. You need two IDENTICAL and tight fitting hides. This means low to the ground and hugging the snake on all sides and with one small opening. Half log hides do not cut it. The hide should also be completely opaque. Place one hide on the hot side and one on the cool side.

Dude.... all depends on what you are willing to do.... I have a baby BP that was born early this year in a 50 gallon tank... but I also have five hides, a half log, a real log, and three different bushes in the tank to make sure that he can get from one side of the tank to the other with out being seen. I have had no eating issues as of yet. The hardest thing with a tank that large is the humidity. I have found that when he is going into shed I will put a wet wash cloth over his favorite hide to raise the humidty in the hide and that seems to work. I have not had any stuck shed while doing that . It is a lot easier to increase the humidity in the hide then in the whole tank. ... So what it all comes down to is how much are you going to put into it if you do increase the size of the tank? If you are not going to put a lot into it then stay with the size you have, becasue bigger tanks are more work.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

He may not be stressed from that particular experience, but he could be stressed out from his environment.

He has two non-identical hides. Hides are very important to ball pythons as they spend nearly all of their time in hides. You need two IDENTICAL and tight fitting hides. This means low to the ground and hugging the snake on all sides and with one small opening. Half log hides do not cut it. The hide should also be completely opaque. Place one hide on the hot side and one on the cool side.

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I have to ask why you say the hides have to be identical. I have a larger tank and so I have six hides in it. .... Lets see two identical rock hides, two identical small rodent hides, a over turned cereal bowl that has a entry cut out, and a half log..... Now most the time he will hang out in one of the two rock hides, then the majority of the time after that he hangs out in the over turned bowl, and if he just ate he likes to hang out under the half log...... He very rarely uses the small rodent hides, and will ocasionally hang out under the bushes that are in his tank..... He still has not chosen to use the matching rock hide......

i must first say i am a inexperienced bp owner,only had my guy for 3 weeks.i got him and the set up from a guy who had no time for him for 150cdn!ultra cheap,the whole set up is exo-terra very pricy up here in canada.the enclosure i know is way bigger than he needs and i got a second hide for him for the cold side.unfortunatly i did not reasearch prior to getting the second hide so my hides are not the same,but i plan on fixing that.however he does use both hides,and he is quite active by times at night.the set up even had a waterfall in it witch he seems to enjoy,he climbs on it often.he is out sometimes during the day,usually when its getting close to feeding day,and i have seen him looking for a way out sometimes.heat was an issue till i got higher wattage bulbs,and i have a uth on the hot side.so far he has been feeding great,but i was concerned the enclosure was too large from alot of info i have been reading.i too find it hard to get my head around the fact that a too large enclosure can stress them out,due to the fact the great outdoors has no limits,but i want to provide my snake with the best care and lowest stress enviroment that i can.most experienced bp owners seem to agree smaller is better and they should know better than i ,but im still confused!thanks for starting this post,its good to see different thoughts and ideas.

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Originally Posted by k2l3d4

Dude.... all depends on what you are willing to do.... I have a baby BP that was born early this year in a 50 gallon tank... but I also have five hides, a half log, a real log, and three different bushes in the tank to make sure that he can get from one side of the tank to the other with out being seen. I have had no eating issues as of yet. The hardest thing with a tank that large is the humidity. I have found that when he is going into shed I will put a wet wash cloth over his favorite hide to raise the humidty in the hide and that seems to work. I have not had any stuck shed while doing that . It is a lot easier to increase the humidity in the hide then in the whole tank. ... So what it all comes down to is how much are you going to put into it if you do increase the size of the tank? If you are not going to put a lot into it then stay with the size you have, becasue bigger tanks are more work.

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i was wondering if you had any pics of your tank. i like the idea of having a lot of space for him, and i like the idea of bushes. are they real bushes or plastic? is it hard to keep the humidity and heat in a cage that size? ting seems content as of now, but i think he may need a larger enclosure within the next year or so.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

He may not be stressed from that particular experience, but he could be stressed out from his environment.

He has two non-identical hides. Hides are very important to ball pythons as they spend nearly all of their time in hides. You need two IDENTICAL and tight fitting hides. This means low to the ground and hugging the snake on all sides and with one small opening. Half log hides do not cut it. The hide should also be completely opaque. Place one hide on the hot side and one on the cool side.

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so identical hides? i only have the half log which has one open side up against a wall. he seems to like it a lot in there. if you think it's best to have identical hides, i can trust that, but i was wondering what might make that the case. is it because they like repetition? he seems content with his cage but i am more than willing to hook him up with whatever he needs.

Identical hides are recommended because the snake won't have to choose security over heat regulation. They may come to prefer a hide over another and stay there regardless if they need to be warmer/cooler.

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Originally Posted by Nae

Identical hides are recommended because the snake won't have to choose security over heat regulation. They may come to prefer a hide over another and stay there regardless if they need to be warmer/cooler.

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Precisely.

OP: I know you have your snakes best interests in mind but you are putting YOUR needs before the snakes whether you think so or not. I know you want what is best for your snake.

You -think- he needs more space. He doesn't NEED more space. Would he be okay with more space? Maybe. There are a lot of issues with having a big tank:

1. Security issues. Ball pythons are shy snakes and actually get more stressed by large enclosures.
2. Temp Gradients and Humidity are harder to maintain in a big tank. Usually, people get big tanks which are unnecessarily tall. Ball pythons are terrestrial and are not known for climbing at all. Having that extra height just means that you have to heat, cool, and maintain proper humidity for no reason. The snake will never be there.
3. Cleaning. The bigger your tank, the more stuff you have to have in it and the more stuff you have to clean every month. Cleaning a tub takes me about 5 minutes. Cleaning a normal sized tank takes about 30-40 minutes. Imagine cleaning a monster tank and everything inside it. It is no picnic.

If you don't think you can maintain temps, humidity, and a safe and clean environment, then don't get a larger tank. A 30g is more than enough for even a big female.

As long as you can fit two identical hides and a water bowl, the snake will be perfectly happy (assuming temps are correct).

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Precisely.

OP: I know you have your snakes best interests in mind but you are putting YOUR needs before the snakes whether you think so or not. I know you want what is best for your snake.

You -think- he needs more space. He doesn't NEED more space. Would he be okay with more space? Maybe. There are a lot of issues with having a big tank:

1. Security issues. Ball pythons are shy snakes and actually get more stressed by large enclosures.
2. Temp Gradients and Humidity are harder to maintain in a big tank. Usually, people get big tanks which are unnecessarily tall. Ball pythons are terrestrial and are not known for climbing at all. Having that extra height just means that you have to heat, cool, and maintain proper humidity for no reason. The snake will never be there.
3. Cleaning. The bigger your tank, the more stuff you have to have in it and the more stuff you have to clean every month. Cleaning a tub takes me about 5 minutes. Cleaning a normal sized tank takes about 30-40 minutes. Imagine cleaning a monster tank and everything inside it. It is no picnic.

If you don't think you can maintain temps, humidity, and a safe and clean environment, then don't get a larger tank. A 30g is more than enough for even a big female.

As long as you can fit two identical hides and a water bowl, the snake will be perfectly happy (assuming temps are correct).

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Great advice as always Kaorte!!! He will use the half log if thats all he has but doesn't mean he likes it! Get two identical hides like Kaorte described and you will see he calm down and stay in the hide more!

sounds good to me. that means i don't have to build a new cage. i will definately take your advice and get identical hides for my little friend. i was actually thinking that was your reasoning for recomending identical hides. but i only thought it would be good for him to have a larger cage because i figured he would grow more in the next year and he already seems like he wants more space, but i'm glad i dont have to invest in a new enclosure. thanks everyone for the advice. :D