"True" Axanthic Theory

WARNING: If you don't have a basic understanding or a firm grasp of Ball Python Genetics I wouldn't bother reading on from here, you have been warned!

This is a conversation that I had with a couple of my breeder friends (more specifically Justin Kobylka & Trey Barnard [mxrider42]) that I would like to share with everyone. Okay so most everyone knows that not all lines of Axanthic are compatible IE Jolliff Axanthic & VPI Axanthic. And everyone knows that the reason why we refer to them as "Axanthic" is because they appear to be lacking specific pigments however as Axanthics age they tend to "Brown Out" which unless you've seen plenty of adult Axanthics you're not likely to be able to immediately tell that the specimen is in fact an Axanthic.

Now this doesn't always apply I've seen some VERY nice VPI & Jolliff Axanthics that held their color well into Adulthood but I believe those are the exceptions, not the rule. Now because VPI & Jolliff Axanthic are incompatible that must mean that the genetic code that makes up a Jolliff and a VPI Axanthic sit in 2 different locations right? Well if that is true than the TSK (The Snake Keeper) Axanthic must also sit in a 3rd location.

Now keeping all of that in mind would a Double Homozygous combination of any of those 3 lines make a "True" Axanthic, meaning an animal that is born with no Brown Pigment and as it ages does not "Brown Out"? I know that Michael Jolliff may have produced a Double Homozygous VPI & Jolliff Axanthic but I haven't heard too much about that project other than he thinks he has made a Double Recessive animal.

If not would a combination of the 3 different lines make such an animal? I know there are more than just those 3 lines but I am naming the ones that I know for a fact are incompatible with 1 another. (For instance NERD has their own Line, but it's compatible with the VPI Line) What do you think?

Personally I think a combination of the VPI & Jolliff Axanthics could produce some very cool "True" Axanthics, only problem wth that is that you'd have to breed them to VPI Axanthics or Jolliff Axanthics to prove that they aren't a single gene animal or just "Het" for the other line. Having trouble following? REfer to the chart below:

Alright so let's say you already have your Double Het. VPI & Jolliff Axanthics, and you breed them together and for giggles we'll say you got a 3.3 and you didn't do so hot on the Odds with only 1.0 Axanthic, and the other 2.3 are P. Double Het for 2 lines of Axanthic. But to illustrate how much work it would require to prove this single animal to be double recessive check out the possibilities list:

1.0 Visual Axanthic from Breeding Dbl Het Jolliff & VPI Axanthics.:

Visual Axanthic x Proven VPI Axanthic - Possible Offspring:

• All Axanthics [Means he is at least a VPI Axanthic]
• All Normals [Means He is actually a Jolliff Axanthic]
• Some Normals and Some Axanthics [This would mean that he is a Jolliff Axanthic But is also Het. for VPI Axanthic

Visual Axanthic x Proven Jolliff Axanthic - Possible Offspring:

• All Axanthics [Means he is at least a Jolliff Axanthic]
• All Normals [Means He is actually a VPI Axanthic]
• Some Normals and Some Axanthics [This would mean that he is a VPI Axanthic But is also Het. for Jolliff Axanthic

Have a headache yet? No? Well how about this: The problem with this is that Theoretically you could get a clutch of All "Normals" OR All Axanthics and the animal actually be Het. for the corresponding line. For Example: If you breed that Visual Boy to the Proven Breeder VPI Axanthic you may produce All Normal looking animals, well that doesn't necessarily mean that the Visual Animal IS NOT Het for VPI Axanthic it would actually take multiple breedings to positively prove it out. And the same goes for the flip side, if you breed that same pairing and get all Axanthics it is possible that the odd gods saw it fit to give you all Visuals from a Heterozygous to Homozygous pairing.

Now after reading all of that I ask you this: Even if it does make a better axanthic is it really worth all that extra work? My examples are assuming you get a male which time wise would be a lot quicker to prove than a Female. :rolleye2:

PS: This doesn't necessarily have to apply to JUST Axanthics, there are multiple lines of Hypo are are Incompatible as well.

Since they all brown out, why would combining the genes remove the brown?

I believe the key is Tyrosinase. 'Albino' balls don't have it--Caramel albinos DO have it. Axanthics DO have--all the lines found so far, at least.
If you want to make a 'true axanthic', you'll have to find a T- axanthic. Maybe one is out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

You could also produce a true axanthic if you can find another ball morph that is JUST T-, and combine it with one of the 3 axanthic lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase

Honestly,
Combining multiple lines of Axanthic would only aid in compatibility as the alleles reside at different locuses. Since the function of this colour is to suppress the expression of yellow pigment; if you want brighter Axanthics a little outside help is needed. IMHO look to the bight morphs, Super Pastels, Fire/Sulfurs these mutations stay bright or even brighten with age. although they have yellow tones, the Axanthic gene pairs (reguardless of locus) would suppress that colour, giving you back a more visible result, no? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Since they all brown out, why would combining the genes remove the brown?

I believe the key is Tyrosinase. 'Albino' balls don't have it--Caramel albinos DO have it. Axanthics DO have--all the lines found so far, at least.
If you want to make a 'true axanthic', you'll have to find a T- axanthic. Maybe one is out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

You could also produce a true axanthic if you can find another ball morph that is JUST T-, and combine it with one of the 3 axanthic lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase

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You beat me to the punch. I believe tyrosinase is they key to the bleed of "red"(in my opinion) colors that attribute to the browning. I have quite a few adult Axanthics (all VPI line) and the vary in their "browness". However, in my eye, none of them have yellow pigment, and to my knowledge, noone has eve been able to isolate or intensify any erythrophores in Ball Pythons.

You almost broke my head, there, I had to do some googling. <lol> (Hey, I only had high school biology).

I agree, I don't think ball pythons have true red pigment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by WingedWolfPsion

Since they all brown out, why would combining the genes remove the brown?

I believe the key is Tyrosinase. 'Albino' balls don't have it--Caramel albinos DO have it. Axanthics DO have--all the lines found so far, at least.
If you want to make a 'true axanthic', you'll have to find a T- axanthic. Maybe one is out there somewhere, waiting to be discovered.

You could also produce a true axanthic if you can find another ball morph that is JUST T-, and combine it with one of the 3 axanthic lines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrosinase

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I didn't think about this. Wes Harris recently hatched a Caramel Axanthic so I guess in a couple of years he'll be able to answer this question :).

I'm really excited to see that one as an adult, to be honest--it SHOULD only have brown coloring--nothing else!

Just buy a black axanthic and be happy :).

How does that increase the Black & white contrast in an Axanthic? If you want the brown suppressed why not pick higher yellow morphs that don't show brown & then use the Axanthic to erase the yellow? Wouldn't that work?

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Originally Posted by Kevin_Hornby

Just buy a black axanthic and be happy :).

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I love me some Black Axanthic, but it's still a very dark animal, I wouldn't mind having a nice light animal like this:

http://leon2ky.com/leon/072509/jolli...anthic_001.jpg

That holds it's color.

Bump, please.

Although the different lines act differently on the genetic pathway, they still produce the same result by blocking (or reducing) the production of red and yellow pigment. I honestly don't think it would be worth it. You would eventually end up with animals that you were unsure of their exact genetics.

Normal
---black------------yellow----------------red--------------------------->

Axanthic
---black------------yellow----------------red---------------------------->

I agree with the above posters in that I expect that the "browning out" or "holding its color" traits are set by other genes inherited from the het parents/grandparents, rather than by any of the axanthic genes themselves. So I expect line breeding specimens that hold their color would be a better way to produce "true axanthics" than combining the different lines.

That said, I still think you should go for it! Just be careful while you're doing it that you don't ever mix up the tags marking which axanthic het-for-other-axanthic is in which tub... ;)

As others have said, what you are proposing, wouldn't get you the results you truly are looking for.

All we need to look at are the two well known morphs dealing with an excess of yellow, or the limiting/lack of yellow (Pastel and Axanthic) and see that both have issues with animals aging and "Browning" out to show that the yellow pigment is not the issue when it comes to the browning out that happens.

The charcoal / black axanthics are a very neat line as well, but I think what we are seeing here is hypermelanism(Excess black pigment) combined with axanthicism (lacking yellow) to produce a very black and "white" animal.

Truth be told, what your best bet would be, as others have said would be to combine an axanthic line, with the fire (het lucy) trait. Fires and Vanillas have both been shown to stay "clean" as they age meaning the browns do not come in.

Another option would even be to throw in the pastel mutation as well to increase the yellow concentration, the axanthic mutation to wash out the yellow, and the fire/vanilla mutations (yes they are different, not same thing) to keep the animal "clean" into adulthood avoiding the browning out that is common with both axanthics and pastels. I don't necessarily think that axanthics or pastels cause the browning out, only that they make it more noticeable than the wild types maturing into their brown colors.

Hope that helps :) :taz:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mahlon

As others have said, what you are proposing, wouldn't get you the results you truly are looking for.

All we need to look at are the two well known morphs dealing with an excess of yellow, or the limiting/lack of yellow (Pastel and Axanthic) and see that both have issues with animals aging and "Browning" out to show that the yellow pigment is not the issue when it comes to the browning out that happens.

The charcoal / black axanthics are a very neat line as well, but I think what we are seeing here is hypermelanism(Excess black pigment) combined with axanthicism (lacking yellow) to produce a very black and "white" animal.

Truth be told, what your best bet would be, as others have said would be to combine an axanthic line, with the fire (het lucy) trait. Fires and Vanillas have both been shown to stay "clean" as they age meaning the browns do not come in.

Another option would even be to throw in the pastel mutation as well to increase the yellow concentration, the axanthic mutation to wash out the yellow, and the fire/vanilla mutations (yes they are different, not same thing) to keep the animal "clean" into adulthood avoiding the browning out that is common with both axanthics and pastels. I don't necessarily think that axanthics or pastels cause the browning out, only that they make it more noticeable than the wild types maturing into their brown colors.

Hope that helps :) :taz:

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very well said! :)

Wow guys, necro thread. :p

Although I would still be curious to see the resulting animals of the 3 known incompatible Axanthic blood lines, I don't think it'd be worth the trouble of combining 3 recessive genes (Triple Het x Triple Het is 1:64 Odds).

That said I need to get an updated picture of my Jolliff Axanthic, he's 500 Grams now and just as beautiful as he ever was! (Just as mean too!)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NorthernRegius

How does that increase the Black & white contrast in an Axanthic? If you want the brown suppressed why not pick higher yellow morphs that don't show brown & then use the Axanthic to erase the yellow? Wouldn't that work?

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I would agree with you. In fact, my personal thought is, why not cross, an axanthic pastel, with an axanthic fire, making an axanthic firefly, which is renowned for brightening as it gets older. Should this not, in theory, keep the animal from browning out with age?? This is of course, just a theory, but who knows?
Also why not simply cross a TSK, with a VPI, and see what the offspring look like. If they look like Oakland Raiders, then we have a compatible cross, if not, we dont. From there, if the offspring look like normals, then we can assume them to be double hets, so we then cross the children to each other, and we can see what the result would then be.

Would love to see a VPI Joaliff or Joaliff VPI AXN sitting next to his grandparents. Anyone? :P