Honest Opinion:No bashing please

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Im buying a number of snakes in the next few weeks. Most are ball pythons but ive had my eye on a couple others as well. I fear if i dont leave my money at home come Oct, i'll be bringing even more snakes home too!

Here is where i want honest opinions. Especially from the breeders & veterans. I know there is very mixed opinions on the hybrid thing. One of the snakes ive always wanted & am currently looking at is a striped borneo short tailed python. If i got this snake i know id be so tempted to breed it to a ball and make "superballs". If i did this, yes they would be documented as such & microchipped. But im still half&half on that idea myself.

The other snake im looking at is a sexed pair of true super dwarf reticulated pythons. Retics have been my favorite snake most of my life but the size prevented me from buying. Well now that they come in a much more convenient size i really want a pair..

Cant get both tho. Its either one striped borneo. Or 2 super dwarf retic's.

If i got the retics, id probably eventually breed them.

What is your opinion on breeding for "superballs" and what is your opinion on the dwarf retics? As it stands, superballs are going for much more money but the stipulations on paperwork, microchip, and the fact that half the people are against it anyway is what makes me think twice.

I know that so far the true dwarves of the retic world dont come in morphs and when crossed with another morph or regular retic you get a snake that maxes out in size somewhere between the super dwarf and a normal retic, still making it a very large snake. So i would keep their blood lines pure even tho they are not as colorful.

Thanks for any input and opinions

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Originally Posted by Draigess

What is your opinion on breeding for "superballs" and what is your opinion on the dwarf retics? As it stands, superballs are going for much more money but the stipulations on paperwork, microchip, and the fact that half the people are against it anyway is what makes me think twice.

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Sure, the price may be higher for a superball, but how many people are actually willing to pay that much for one? How many people have you come across that have actually bought one? You have to factor in how hard it would be to sell them also.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

You have to factor in how hard it would be to sell them also.

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You also have to factor in the risks and effects it could possibly have on your reputation. The hybrid topic is a pretty hot issue, I wouldn't be surprised if there were people that did not do business with breeders who conduct hybrid projects.

The other side of that is just because you have the Borneo and the bp it doesn't mean they will breed. From what I've read at least it's not anywhere close to easy. That might have something to do with the high prices, but I don't know anyone who would pay those prices for one.
On a side note I'm thinking about a super dwarf at some point myself.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Sure, the price may be higher for a superball, but how many people are actually willing to pay that much for one? How many people have you come across that have actually bought one? You have to factor in how hard it would be to sell them also.

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Ive thought about that. Also the fact that if a super ball is then crossed to a ball, the resulting "superball" is only 1/4 borneo & 3/4 ball. You can eventually breed out the morph all together. Which makes it seem silly to do anything other than keep breeding hybrid to hybrid... Another reason im leaning toward the retics.

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Originally Posted by Spaniard

You also have to factor in the risks and effects it could possibly have on your reputation. The hybrid topic is a pretty hot issue, I wouldn't be surprised if there were people that did not do business with breeders who conduct hybrid projects.

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Another good point. I definately would not want to ruin my rep by breeding something that the majority of people are against.

I say go for the retics! & if you do, when you breed them, i get one right? ;)

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Originally Posted by DBD

I say go for the retics! & if you do, when you breed them, i get one right? ;)

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LOL! Oh id definately breed the little retic's :) There just arent enough people out there breeding the super dwarf. How can you resist that head & those eyes?? I guess it comes down to 2 things. Whats my favorite choice, & whats the best long term investment.. Bloods & Retic's were always my favorites.

Here is my thoughts.. Just my two cents.
1: I have no problem with Hybrid's I think they are very interesting and offer allot of understanding in to the taxonomy of both species.

2: Retics are currently under fire buy the government. While all exotics are being aimed at Retics and other giants are being named right now.. If that house bill passes your ability to breed, sale, ect.ect.ect will be shot. Are you willing to spend the money on the pair of tics and rick not being able to do anything (including take them with you if you move) if that bill goes through.

I don't think either are bad ideas but it's you that is going to have to deal with them for the next 20+ years

If it were me I'd definitely go for the Retics. I really believe if people breed them specifically for their size and more are readily available, they will be super popular in the herp community.

Hybrids... Not so much.

EDIT: Freakie Frog made a very valid point. There's a lot of thinking to do.

I would go with the Dwarf Retics as well.
However, you should do whatever interest you more.
I am not a big fan of most Hybrids, but if you are, go for it.
Anyone that will blacklist you for having a Hybrid project is probably someone you won't mind not dealing with anyway.

As long as you keep documents, microchip and properly represent your animals I do not think that having a "Pet Project" makes anyone a "Bad Guy."
After all, this is a HOBBY!

With all of the "Giant" laws being proposed I doubt the Retic market will be much, if any better then the Hybrid market in another 2-3 years. Dwarf or not, they are still considered Giants and fall under the same laws and bans as the Big Boys.

To give those of you who havent seen them yet, an idea of what im talking about. Here are 2 pics of super dwarf retic's. You have to be careful that you are getting the real thing. Super dwarfs should not have the bright yellow eyes. Thier heads are a bit bigger and their color and pattern is muddier. They should get no bigger than 7 to 10 ft as adults. Check em out. IS this what i should get??


Adult male at least 7 years old..
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...uperdwarf2.jpg


http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...superdwarf.jpg

I can definitely see myself with a male super dwarf. I have no desire to breem em, just want one for myself. Full size normal retics freak me out....they are very large and very intelligent. Super dwarfs are sweet though.

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Originally Posted by waltah!

I can definitely see myself with a male super dwarf. I have no desire to breem em, just want one for myself. Full size normal retics freak me out....they are very large and very intelligent. Super dwarfs are sweet though.

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I agree.. The top picture is a definate super dwarf but im not so sure about the second pic. Seems like that one has too much yellow in it. I got the pics from differents sites tho. If i got a pair i dont think i would purposely breed them. Id most likely just house them together and if it happens it happens. Im not sure id actually try to condition them for breeding tho. Maybe one clutch would be nice. But like someone else said. If a ban on giant snakes goes into effect, how would i sell them? How do you prove to the government that this particular strain of retic is not a giant? Doesnt seem possible. But yes they are very sweet. They are supposed to have a better attitude than regular retics.

Hi,

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Originally Posted by Draigess

Also the fact that if a super ball is then crossed to a ball, the resulting "superball" is only 1/4 borneo & 3/4 ball. You can eventually breed out the morph all together.

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Actually you really can't - and that is a big part of why some people dislike the hybrid idea.

If there is a hybrid in the genepool no matter how far back you can never gaurantee any resulting animal as pure ever again. You can say "It doesn't look like there are any borneo genes in it" but really is the best you can say.

That may be one reason why people are occasionally reluctant to deal with people known to create hybrids. You are totally at the mercy of their record keeping skills.


dr del

Id say if you want to do it then thats your choice. When i was at BHB he pulled out a superball he had there, yet people still buy from him. I dont know if hes breeding superballs or he acquired it, he didnt say. But they are amazing snakes and i wouldnt mind having one in my collection as a display snake like my cobra.

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Originally Posted by Draigess

To give those of you who havent seen them yet, an idea of what im talking about. Here are 2 pics of super dwarf retic's. You have to be careful that you are getting the real thing. Super dwarfs should not have the bright yellow eyes. Thier heads are a bit bigger and their color and pattern is muddier. They should get no bigger than 7 to 10 ft as adults. Check em out. IS this what i should get??


Adult male at least 7 years old..
http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...uperdwarf2.jpg


http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l2...superdwarf.jpg

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Your sizes are a bit off. As Super dwarf retics max out at bout 7ft and a hair thinner than BCI boas. Jampea dwarfs are the 10-12 footer dwarfs. If you buy from reputable breeder you wont have to worry about getting a giant.

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Originally Posted by Draigess

You can eventually breed out the morph all together.

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Im sorry, that is entirely incorrect. Any of those animals bred will NEVER be pure again. Just because the animal LOOKS like the Pure version, does not mean it is. It could be 99.999999% pure, but regardless, it is NOT 100%. That matters to a LOT of people, and any such animals should be marketed as such.

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Originally Posted by flameethrower

Your sizes are a bit off. As Super dwarf retics max out at bout 7ft and a hair thinner than BCI boas. Jampea dwarfs are the 10-12 footer dwarfs. If you buy from reputable breeder you wont have to worry about getting a giant.

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Yeah i was seeing some info about that when i was doing research on them.. Im pretty sure the bottom pic of the ones i posted is a Jampea. As they look more like traditional retics with more yellow and yellow or orange eyes.. I definately want a true super dwarf. The ones that only get about 7 feet like the one in my top pic..

Oh and i double checked the site i got that top pic from and it says that is a 10 year old male, not 7. My bad..

it's ultimately your decision. I don't mind an honestly represented hybrid, some of them are super cool! Like, the superballs. But, no matter what, in my opinion you can't better nature and there is nothing more beautiful than a snake in it's natural form. I would not choose to get the striped borneo and then attempt to make hybrids from that. there is such a small chance of that happening... because trust me, if it was that easy to just put the 2 snakes together and let them do their thing, they would not be worth nearly as much. I would not even consider it as an option. I would instead, save up for another borneo. If I were to do something like produce a superball, it would be more like, I had two breedable snakes in my collection that I did not have mates for and decided to try something out and it may or may not work out, but I would definitely not rely or count on it happening. Even if I witnessed a lockup, I would be surprised to see viable eggs as a result.

Making hybrids like superballs should not be slated into one's plans... it should be treated more like... icing on the cake? Kind of like low percentage possible hets. You can toy around with them and if it actually works out that is fantastic, but don't bank on producing any pieds.

I would pick the short tail because I like them more, but I would pick it for that reason only and not for what I can do with it or how much money I might make in the future. The investment factor, while always considered is never a deciding factor in my choice of snakes. I work with mainly garter snakes, and there are a few morphs out there that, while they sell for a nice chunk of $$$$, I simply won't buy because I don't like their look, (the whitesided red-sided garter for example) and instead I will focus on line breeding for beautiful and outstanding variations of "normals". When I find some nice, outcrossed (I wish people would stop inbreeding them endlessly) albino checkered garters, I will buy them. Is it a good investment? Absolutely not. Terrible investment, you can't even hardly give them away anymore. But are they beautiful and a snake I will enjoy looking at and interacting with? Yes! That, to me at least, has far more value in it than any investment I may or may not make back in the future.

More and more people are starting to take great pride in pure lines of selectively bred snakes that, while normals, are incredibly outstanding in their own way! Super dwarfs are one of those and it IS very cool that retics come in pint size!

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Originally Posted by Draigess

Ive thought about that. Also the fact that if a super ball is then crossed to a ball, the resulting "superball" is only 1/4 borneo & 3/4 ball. .

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Its called a mongrel ball

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More and more people are starting to take great pride in pure lines of selectively bred snakes that, while normals, are incredibly outstanding in their own way! Super dwarfs are one of those and it IS very cool that retics come in pint size![/QUOTE]

I appreciate your post the most because you went into so much detail and you seem to have a love for your animals like i do. The whole superball thing [I]would[I] be a shot in the dark i know. Im operating on strict budget (or at least trying to), and since im already getting 5 other new balls right away, i really wanted something else. Something other than a ball. Like my 2 all time favorites. The Blood's and the Retic's.

Considering my snake budget for the year- snakes, new caging, new incubator, etc.. As much as id like 2 striped borneos, i just dont think i can afford it. But i can afford 2 super dwarf retics.

Id love to breed them but they would be pets as well, so like i said in a previous post, i probably would not cycle and condition them to breed but if it happened it would be a great surprise!

I myself have been up & down over the hybrid thing. I guess as long as there is any doubt in my mind then i should follow that and nix the hybrid idea all together.

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Originally Posted by sg1trogdor

Its called a mongrel ball

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Yep Yep.. Roussis's own

I actually had a blood python and wanted to see if she would breed with my pastel when she came of age and weight.

I am unsure if anyone is breeding them here in the US.
It would be kinda cool to get that unusual pattern and get near 99% purebred balls with the mixed pattern/color of the blood.
I would be aware that breeding the retics could backfire, and it depends of where you live.
And if they get outlawed without permits and crossing statelines and all that.
You could spend the money to get some high end snakes that are ready to breed and make a good amount there.
I would contact the large breeders to see where the trends are going and see what stock they have available.
I would come up with a business plan and see where you can be in 5 yrs with it before spending the money.

Hope this helps
Carol

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Originally Posted by Montessa Python

I actually had a blood python and wanted to see if she would breed with my pastel when she came of age and weight.

I am unsure if anyone is breeding them here in the US.
It would be kinda cool to get that unusual pattern and get near 99% purebred balls with the mixed pattern/color of the blood.
I would be aware that breeding the retics could backfire, and it depends of where you live.
And if they get outlawed without permits and crossing statelines and all that.
You could spend the money to get some high end snakes that are ready to breed and make a good amount there.
I would contact the large breeders to see where the trends are going and see what stock they have available.
I would come up with a business plan and see where you can be in 5 yrs with it before spending the money.

Hope this helps
Carol

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They are being bred. Hybrids with a ball can be made with a few different snakes. Like the short tailed bloods and the actual woma pythons. I know Roussis reptiles has made them. Other hybrids have been made too. Like burmese x retic. But like you say, the market is changing, as are the laws. Which is why im only breeding balls at the moment. Im also trying to chose my breeders wisely so i dont end up with morphs no one wants anymore. A great example is the coral glow/banana ball. Its price dropped by about a hundred grand in a matter of 2 years. Now the ones up for sale for 20 grand are not selling. The market is too bad. The other breeders who have them are not selling them because they are continously creating new morphs with them. Probably a good idea anyway as far as investments go.

If the general financial market goes back up, so will this business/hobby. But until then, everyones at a serious cross roads at the moment because business is slow and the rarest high-end balls are not selling like they were a few years ago.. Come October. when i go to the NARBC show, chances are i'll end up bringing home more balls. Which might just put a complete stop to me getting any other type of snake wether its my dream snake or not.

In fact i know that will happen if i happen to find an affordable super black pastel and a nice pied LOL!

THeres also a burm X ball, carpet X ball I thinks theres another but can't think of it. woma X ball, and blood X ball mentioned above.

i had to sell off my non balls recently due to a move,i will get back into bloods though,focusing on tryint to make the ivories,and nice blacks,but i will also throw a shot or 2 at a super ball,knowing the odds are 1 in a thousand i will get anywhere,and i wont be banking on it happening,and if it does,i know i wont be charging out ragous prices for them as many are now,honestly,if i was you,i'd get a pair of nice bloods and go from there,and wait and see what happens in retic laws before going that route,not just for breeding,but for permiting,and future moving issues

If I were you I would not wait for the retic if you really wanted them. The laws havent passed yet and we will continue to fight the nationwide bans becuase the fight is nowhere near over. But regardless either way there will always be new legislation come up every year or every other year proposing the ban on large constrictors and im sure crocs and hots and so on and so on but thats why we just pull together and fight them. If you wait out on a retic chances are you will always be waiting becuase if its not hr669 its hr 2811 and next year im sure there will be another and another so get what ever you like more.

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Originally Posted by Denial

If I were you I would not wait for the retic if you really wanted them. The laws havent passed yet and we will continue to fight the nationwide bans becuase the fight is nowhere near over. But regardless either way there will always be new legislation come up every year or every other year proposing the ban on large constrictors and im sure crocs and hots and so on and so on but thats why we just pull together and fight them. If you wait out on a retic chances are you will always be waiting becuase if its not hr669 its hr 2811 and next year im sure there will be another and another so get what ever you like more.

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now thats a post thats 200% truth they will always try to ban them now.
do we all these supposed "safety laws".