Future Bumble Bee price?

Where do you all see the price of Bees going in the next few years? They seem to be more available and the recipe is pretty simple. That being said...I would assume the price will fall? I'd love to hear your views!

Thanks,

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Where do you all see the price of Bees going in the next few years? They seem to be more available and the recipe is pretty simple. That being said...I would assume the price will fall? I'd love to hear your views!

Thanks,

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The Price is allready falling! Yesterday on KS I saw bees for $550shipped,the same time last year it was $1000+

I haven't always thought this way but a good friend put it in perspective when he said "at the end of the day we're only selling snakes with paint jobs".

I look at it like this every breeder should price their animals based on what they think they are worth.. If breeder a produce crappy brown spotty bee's and thinks they are only worth 550.00 shipped that's their right and their more than likely right their only worth 550.00 and that's what their happy getting for them more power to them. But if a breeder produces nice bright clean spotless bees that hold their color and they think they are worth 550.00 still that is also their right. We are getting to the point where a breeder that takes great care in selective breeding can demand a higher price for their animals than on that really doesn't care they just want to produce bees and so they throw any ole Pastel and spider together. Like another friend said "I wouldn't pay 550.00 and expect a 1000.00 paint job any more than I would be happy paying 1000.00 and getting a 550.00 one either".

Yes Bees are easy to get but great Bees not so much. Think to yourself when it gets to be 1500+ grams and 5 years old will I still BEE proud to show it off or will it be "yeah that's just a bee" This goes for any morph base of combo. Are you buying the gene or are you buying the quality.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I haven't always thought this way but a good friend put it in perspective when he said "at the end of the day we're only selling snakes with paint jobs".

I look at it like this every breeder should price their animals based on what they think they are worth.. If breeder a produce crappy brown spotty bee's and thinks they are only worth 550.00 shipped that's their right and their more than likely right their only worth 550.00 and that's what their happy getting for them more power to them. But if a breeder produces nice bright clean spotless bees that hold their color and they think they are worth 550.00 still that is also their right. We are getting to the point where a breeder that takes great care in selective breeding can demand a higher price for their animals than on that really doesn't care they just want to produce bees and so they throw any ole Pastel and spider together. Like another friend said "I wouldn't pay 550.00 and expect a 1000.00 paint job any more than I would be happy paying 1000.00 and getting a 550.00 one either".

Yes Bees are easy to get but great Bees not so much. Think to yourself when it gets to be 1500+ grams and 5 years old will I still BEE proud to show it off or will it be "yeah that's just a bee" This goes for any morph base of combo. Are you buying the gene or are you buying the quality.

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There should be an "agree" button next to the "thanks" button ... ;)

I said it in another thread, but I will say it again -- I definitely think that in the future, as these "average" morphs become more and more common and available, it'll be the quality of the individual animal that counts, possibly even moreso than the morph.

Might seem weird now to think of a pastel that's more expensive than a bee ... But imagine if that pastel was yellower, and more vibrant, than the bee was.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I haven't always thought this way but a good friend put it in perspective when he said "at the end of the day we're only selling snakes with paint jobs".

I look at it like this every breeder should price their animals based on what they think they are worth.. If breeder a produce crappy brown spotty bee's and thinks they are only worth 550.00 shipped that's their right and their more than likely right their only worth 550.00 and that's what their happy getting for them more power to them. But if a breeder produces nice bright clean spotless bees that hold their color and they think they are worth 550.00 still that is also their right. We are getting to the point where a breeder that takes great care in selective breeding can demand a higher price for their animals than on that really doesn't care they just want to produce bees and so they throw any ole Pastel and spider together. Like another friend said "I wouldn't pay 550.00 and expect a 1000.00 paint job any more than I would be happy paying 1000.00 and getting a 550.00 one either".

Yes Bees are easy to get but great Bees not so much. Think to yourself when it gets to be 1500+ grams and 5 years old will I still BEE proud to show it off or will it be "yeah that's just a bee" This goes for any morph base of combo. Are you buying the gene or are you buying the quality.

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This actually makes alot of sense! So your saying...Bees may become a dime a dozen...but High quality Bees may still be pretty rare?

I have a very nice female on hold for $600.

I've said it before....morph prices are a race to the bottom. When I got my first albino female they were at 1500...now around 500.
My spider male cost 800...now they go for 150 to 200.
Bees are easy to make. Spiders and pastels are a dime a dozen. Expect the prices to fall a lot more.
$400 by next summer.

I expect the prices to really drop because the recipe is cheap and relatively easy to make. Eventually you will just be paying for the time it takes to breed. I see it dropping to $400 maybe $350, but I don't think it will go much lower than that because they carry two base morphs.

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Originally Posted by demjor19

This actually makes alot of sense! So your saying...Bees may become a dime a dozen...but High quality Bees may still be pretty rare?

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Yep you can get a bee or you can get a BEE!!!.. it just means that people that bid their time and focus on producing the best animals they can will still be getting double what everyone else is for a Bee even in 5 years. Bee's may be 250.00 (God forbid) but high quality Bees will still command a higher price. Once price is no longer a bargaining factor then quality is the main focus.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Yep you can get a bee or you can get a BEE!!!.. it just means that people that bid their time and focus on producing the best animals they can will still be getting double what everyone else is for a Bee even in 5 years. Bee's may be 250.00 (God forbid) but high quality Bees will still command a higher price. Once price is no longer a bargaining factor then quality is the main focus.

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As with any animal, quality will bring a better price. Unfortunately there will be lots of lower quality stuff to pick from.
I have seen some really poor examples of bees lately.

Look at this ugly girl;) ...oh well she's over 2500 grams, I guess I'll keep her.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...rkycloseup.jpg

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Originally Posted by DVS1

As with any animal, quality will bring a better price. Unfortunately there will be lots of lower quality stuff to pick from.
I have seen some really poor examples of bees lately.

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:gj::gj::gj: Your seeing lower quality bees cause people were buying the lower quality Pastels and Spiders for rock bottom prices.. a few years back. They were only interested in producing Bees and not producing "Quality" bees.. When you can get 1500.00 for a combo regardless of its looks then nobody worry's about what they look like. People are buying the gene and not the quality. Fast forward 4 years when every Tom, :cens0r::cens0r::cens0r::cens0r: and Harry can produce Bees and all of a sudden quality has gone with the price.

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Originally Posted by DVS1

Look at this ugly girl;) ...oh well she's over 2500 grams, I guess I'll keep her.
http://i154.photobucket.com/albums/s...rkycloseup.jpg

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Yep she's ugly alright you can pass her along to me anytime!:banana:

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Originally Posted by DVS1

Look at this ugly girl;) ...oh well she's over 2500 grams, I guess I'll keep her.

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I don't blame ya there

I've been seeing some very dirty bees lately too. I picked up my Pastel and Spider to create a Bee for myself...not so much for selling them. Either way I think I have two good looking snakes. Will the pattern of my Spider affect the pattern that the Bees will have?

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Will the pattern of my Spider affect the pattern that the Bees will have?

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ive always wondered this, i just never got around to asking it o_O

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Originally Posted by h00blah

ive always wondered this, i just never got around to asking it o_O

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I can't speak on Bee's but I have noticed that the spiders I have produce the last two years do share allot of the same pattern and even color that the sire has.

I'd venture a guess to say yes!..the spider pattern will more than likely pas down to its offspring, It might not be as pronounced as the parent but you'll be able to see it at least in some aspect.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I can't speak on Bee's but I have noticed that the spiders I have produce the last two years do share allot of the same pattern and even color that the sire has.

I'd venture a guess to say yes!..the spider pattern will more than likely pas down to its offspring, It might not be as pronounced as the parent but you'll be able to see it at least in some aspect.

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I'm really hoping that some of the stripe from my Spider is passed down. I know it's not likely, but it would be cool! i guess I'll find out in a few years.

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Originally Posted by demjor19

I'm really hoping that some of the stripe from my Spider is passed down. I know it's not likely, but it would be cool! i guess I'll find out in a few years.

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It is very likely.. My founding male spider is striped and all of his offspring have varying degrees of it from all the way down..

Like this girl.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...s/DSC_0241.jpg

To a little less one..
http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e9...a/IMG_5639.jpg

To very little like this one..But all of them have some form or stripe.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/h...s/DSC_0404.jpg

That first one looks very similar to my Spider! So you think there is a chance that the stripe could pass down to my Bee offspring?

Think about it this way.. compare BPs to two other very popular and easy to care for reptiles: corn snakes and leopard geckos.

You can find morphs of both for EXTRAORDINARILY cheap. $25 for an amel corn? Not unheard of.

recessive morphs and double dom/co-dom morphs for BPs will probably bottom out at $100-200, simply because BPs aren't as prolific as corns and leopard geckos. This will take a while, but I think they will eventually get there and maybe even cheaper.

As people always say though, a quality animal can command a much higher price. Think about the extraordinary normal females out there that a breeder wouldn't part with at all, because of how important she is to a specific breeding project.

I love Striped Spiders! Some of the best looking spiders out there IMO.

Here are the male (Pastel) and female (Spider) I plan on using. Any thoughts on the quality of these two or the young they may produce? They are both very young still, but I am very pleased with them (and I guess that's what's most important).

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...0/DSCN1913.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...0/DSCN1872.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...0/DSCN1970.jpg

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t...0/DSCN1973.jpg

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Here are the male (Pastel) and female (Spider) I plan on using. Any thoughts on the quality of these two or the young they may produce? They are both very young still, but I am very pleased with them (and I guess that's what's most important).

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I like your spider a lot. She's very light and blushy, which I like, and she has a fairly reduced pattern, which I like. I would imagine (though I am speaking from conjecture, not experience) that she will produce some very nice bees.

Your pastel male ... He is not the one I would have picked, to be quite honest. I like very reduced-pattern, banded, blushy pastels (which are NOT easy to find, unfortunately), though that's purely a matter of preference. I would also be concerned that he may "brown out" quite a bit based on the amount of light brown/orange on his back.

He does seem to have some nice, bright yellow on his sides, which is nice.

I'm curious to hear some other, more experienced breeders chime in.

Breeding is all fairly new to me, so keep the opinions coming and be honest. We knew what we liked in a spider, but we were pretty clueless as to what we were looking for in the pastel. we definitely enjoy him though!

We went to the show with the intent of getting our Spider (so that was #1 goal). We have also always loved Bees, so once we had the Spider...we thought it would be a fun project to try producing our own bee. That's where the pastel came into play. Even if he's not "the one"...he makes a great pet and seems to be very healthy. I'm not in this for the money, but if it could be a biproduct from this project...I won't argue.

Thanks for the opinions!

P.s. Could anyone post a pic of what they consider a higher quality Pastel?

I'm going to go against the grain on the topic of quality animals will keep prices up. I've seen people produce great looking pastels that are super bright from browned out ugly pastels. I agree selective breed helps refine the line, but I don't it's going to command that much more money than what the average market is going for. People are cheap. If I needed a bee and I was comparing an average looking one for $500 and a great looking bee for $750. I would buy the cheaper one and save the $250 and buy another animal, rack or have some beer money for a while.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some guys like fats chicks, others the opposite. This is just my thoughts on the subject.

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Originally Posted by pauletto

I'm going to go against the grain on the topic of quality animals will keep prices up. I've seen people produce great looking pastels that are super bright from browned out ugly pastels. I agree selective breed helps refine the line, but I don't it's going to command that much more money than what the average market is going for. People are cheap. If I needed a bee and I was comparing an average looking one for $500 and a great looking bee for $750. I would buy the cheaper one and save the $250 and buy another animal, rack or have some beer money for a while.

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There's nothing wrong with that at all. It just means that your shopping the price and not the look of the animal nothing more its not good or bad. That's exactly what I was saying. Some people will shop the price just to have a Bee then some people will shop the look so that they have the best Bee money can buy. Nothing wrong with either one. Just depends on the buyers mindset when it comes to buying. There are animals that I haven't bought yet cause I can't decide if I want to buy just to have the gene or do I buy to have the look.

In my mind and this is just me nothing against you. I wont spend my hard earned money on anything less than the absolute best I can get my hands on at the time. I still don't own Lemon Pastels for this reason.

I hear you. I don't know if that fact that I'm an artist, but I fine almost every ball python to be unique in it's own way. I just can't justify spending X amount more if I can save a buck and still be happy with my purchase.

Thanks guys.

If I was to buy a bee...I would agree with getting the best that I can find. That being said...I can not afford the Bee that would make me happy. At least I can not justify the money it would cost at the moment. I think breeding for one would be a great experience and I love surprises!

it's kind of ironic...by the time my snakes are mature and ready to breed...I could probably afford a nice bee! :rolleye2:

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Thanks guys.

it's kind of ironic...by the time my snakes are mature and ready to breed...I could probably afford a nice bee! :rolleye2:

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Yep that the part that people don't take into account when the look at which is cheaper the ingredient or the out come. Some times it better to just go ahead and spend the money on the combo and use that time and money raising up the outcome than trying to raise two snakes to get the out come..

I know I could have purchased the Bee and skipped forward about 3 years (we did discuss this option), but as I said...we love the Spiders for what they are, so we wanted one anyway. Also...I'm definitely not in this for the money, but will obviously be selling any of the offspring I do not keep (which would just be an added bonus).

Thanks again for the input guys! Always appreciated!

Wow, so if Bees drop to 250 ? What will spiders be going for 50 bucks ? Pastels 25 ? Normals 5 ?

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Originally Posted by trott

Wow, so if Bees drop to 250 ? What will spiders be going for 50 bucks ? Pastels 25 ? Normals 5 ?

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Probably pretty close. I would bet male spiders will eventually settle in at around $100 and pastels for about $50 (probably already about there for wholesale prices). Females may take a bit longer but eventually they will be there as well.

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Originally Posted by pfan151

Probably pretty close. I would bet male spiders will eventually settle in at around $100 and pastels for about $50 (probably already about there for wholesale prices). Females may take a bit longer but eventually they will be there as well.

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Why are females more expensive? I always thought you could get more out of a male in a season.

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Why are females more expensive? I always thought you could get more out of a male in a season.

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You need females to make baby snakes. :D

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Originally Posted by jglass38

You need females to make baby snakes. :D

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And you dont need males? :P

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Originally Posted by demjor19

And you dont need males? :P

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I think you get my point. ;)

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I think you get my point. ;)

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I really dont think I do...arent they equally important?

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Why are females more expensive? I always thought you could get more out of a male in a season.

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Yea, but you only need one male.

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Originally Posted by demjor19

I really don't think I do...aren't they equally important?

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It depends on your goal..I'd give my left leg to have all my co-dom males be co-dom females.

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Originally Posted by demjor19

I really dont think I do...arent they equally important?

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No. Females are more important.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

It depends on your goal..I'd give my left leg to have all my co-dom males be co-dom females.

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I'm with you. I'd be in a much better position!

Could somebody please explain why? For example...what's the difference if my Spider is a female and my Pastel is a male (other than the obvious)? In the end wont I have the same reults?

25% Bee
25% Spider
25% Pastel
25% Normal

Switching the sexes of the two would not change the outcome...would it?

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Originally Posted by demjor19

And you dont need males? :P

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Since one male can breed up to five or more females, I need at least 5 times as many more females than males. To me, that makes the females that I produce at least 5 times more valuable than a male ... especially if I already own a male co-dom that produced the clutch.

Price is driven by both supply and demand ... because breeders are hanging on to females (in some case by an order of 5 to 1) the supply of females is much lower compared to males ... that's what makes females more expensive.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Since one male can breed up to five or more females, I need at least 5 times as many more females than males. To me, that makes the females that I produce at least 5 times more valuable than a male ... especially if I already own a male co-dom that produced the clutch.

Price is driven by both supply and demand ... because breeders are hanging on to females (in some case by an order of 5 to 1) the supply of females is much lower compared to males ... that's what makes females more expensive.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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He's alive! Great post and you summed it up much more succinctly then I ever could. :gj:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Since one male can breed up to five or more females, I need at least 5 times as many more females than males. To me, that makes the females that I produce at least 5 times more valuable than a male ... especially if I already own a male co-dom that produced the clutch.

Price is driven by both supply and demand ... because breeders are hanging on to females (in some case by an order of 5 to 1) the supply of females is much lower compared to males ... that's what makes females more expensive.

Hope this helps.

-adam

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Ohhhh...GOT IT! Thanks!

So...since the males can breed to more than one female...people are buying more females to pair up with each male. Since there are roughtly an equal number of males/females in existance the females become more sought after and valued.

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Originally Posted by demjor19

Since there are roughtly an equal number of males/females in existance the females become more sought after and valued.

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Not always. With co-dom/dom morphs, often males are more expensive, at least initially. Since they're co-dom, a male could be breeding after only a year, whereas a female it would be three years. Plus a female can only produce so many eggs, but a male can breed many females and produce lots of said morph. So because of this, males are initially more valuable as they can produce lots of that new morph.

it takes more to grow females up to size and leads to morph to morph crosses. right now alot of ppl would rather hold back their morph females due to the prices than give them away. just look at adult female prices they are pretty much all over the board but morph females are not. i know of many breeders that would just breed codom/dom males to normals and not keep any females for many years and just this year some are starting to produce bumblebees and other combo morphs, some even learned from the mistakes of the past but there is still many ppl breeding that have to sell everything they produce. some of those same breeders would get mad because i was buying morph females. out of my 60+ snakes i only have 11 normal females and 15 male morphs everything else is female morphs or hets.

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Originally Posted by nixer

it takes more to grow females up to size and leads to morph to morph crosses. right now alot of ppl would rather hold back their morph females due to the prices than give them away. just look at adult female prices they are pretty much all over the board but morph females are not. i know of many breeders that would just breed codom/dom males to normals and not keep any females for many years and just this year some are starting to produce bumblebees and other combo morphs, some even learned from the mistakes of the past but there is still many ppl breeding that have to sell everything they produce. some of those same breeders would get mad because i was buying morph females. out of my 60+ snakes i only have 11 normal females and 15 male morphs everything else is female morphs or hets.

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60+ snakes. Sweet..Still waiting for some of those pics! We LOVE pics! :D

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Originally Posted by nixer

it takes more to grow females up to size and leads to morph to morph crosses. right now alot of ppl would rather hold back their morph females due to the prices than give them away. just look at adult female prices they are pretty much all over the board but morph females are not. i know of many breeders that would just breed codom/dom males to normals and not keep any females for many years and just this year some are starting to produce bumblebees and other combo morphs, some even learned from the mistakes of the past but there is still many ppl breeding that have to sell everything they produce. some of those same breeders would get mad because i was buying morph females. out of my 60+ snakes i only have 11 normal females and 15 male morphs everything else is female morphs or hets.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

60+ snakes. Sweet..Still waiting for some of those pics! We LOVE pics! :D

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LOL - He is lazy come on Nix do i need to stop by and take the pics for you :)