Piebaldism?

So I am taking a Genes and Dev. class and we talked about piebaldism today. So Piebaldism is a genetic event that causes certain symptoms in humans such as: anemia, colorless patches of skin, sterility, and digestive tracts that cant digest correctly :O. Now, I know humans arent snakes, but these genetic mutations can be triggered in mice and other model species for study and I was wondering, do piebald snakes show any of these conditions? Again, I know a snake is not a human, or even a rat, but I was just curious when I was in class today.

Nope, only thing Piebald about a Piebald Python is the white patches.

So im curious then. Is it a piebald gene that causes this--or a gene mutation--or did someone breed and then decide to call the morph piebald because of the color?

Thing is Pied happens in horses, birds, mice, rats, snakes, lizards ext..the mutation is different in each species but the common factor is the Skin pigmentation issue. The Pied Ball Python is simply named as such cause it resembles but in the recessive factor and in the pigmentation presentation.

Well I know it happens in other animals, I just wasnt sure if there were issues in the snakes that can arise in the humans and the mice. I dont know much about the piebald horses and the most we've ever discussed horse genetics was to talk about how many genes control coat color. Then again, I guess you can also ask if Piebald horses are called Pieds because of only the color, same with the birds etc, or if it is really the genetic mutation. Then which came first, the mutation or the word. Lol. So I guess im biting off and trying to chew more than what really matters. Anyhow, thanks :)

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

So im curious then. Is it a piebald gene that causes this--or a gene mutation--or did someone breed and then decide to call the morph piebald because of the color?

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Not sure what you're asking but, piebald ball pythons are a naturally occurring morph that was brought over from the wilds of Africa. They were not bred to appear the way they do.

What I was asking is if the piebald name is piebald because of the color (did someone decide to name this morph piebald) or does it have something to do with the actual piebald genetic mutation.

But I got my answer, so thanks anyhow :)

yea its only the colors

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

What I was asking is if the piebald name is piebald because of the color (did someone decide to name this morph piebald) or does it have something to do with the actual piebald genetic mutation.

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It's a mutation and a phenotype. Piebaldism stems from a defect in neural crest development during embryogenesis. This defect affects distribution of melanocytes which causes the white patches that you see in humans, rats, horses, (and we assume) snakes, etc. Usually, the more white you see in mammals, the more severe the neurological disorders. That's why breeding for high white in horses is discouraged. I wouldn't be surprised if pied BPs have some sort of disorder that we're not aware of. They certainly can't tell us if they're having visual disturbances or digestive issues. Or, the mutation may be quite benign. It depends on which gene and where along the gene the mutation is located, or if more than one mutated gene is working in tandem with another. I've heard complaints from some breeders that their pieds are picky eaters. If this turns out to be a common complaint, there might be evidence that there is some consequence of this mutation. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by MsPrada

So im curious then. Is it a piebald gene that causes this--or a gene mutation--or did someone breed and then decide to call the morph piebald because of the color?

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i understand the question, i would like to x2 it too =p.

like if someone named the green tree boa an emerald green bc its literally made of emeralds, or is it just bc it resembles it.
did someone name the piebald pied bc it literally is pied? or is it just bc it resembles one?

Actually, to really confuse the issue, any lack of dermal pigment, partial or entire, is called leucism. Piebald is an archaic term (such as the term "buzzard" when we really mean "vulture"). I believe the correct term for piebaldism is partial leucism. And, yes, these pied BPs are actually pied--or partially leucistic--whatever you want to call them. The condition is genetic, as Pete Kahl has proven, and the term used to describe animals that have stark white patches on their skin is "piebald" or "partially leucistic."

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Originally Posted by GenePirate

It's a mutation and a phenotype. Piebaldism stems from a defect in neural crest development during embryogenesis. This defect affects distribution of melanocytes which causes the white patches that you see in humans, rats, horses, (and we assume) snakes, etc. Usually, the more white you see in mammals, the more severe the neurological disorders. That's why breeding for high white in horses is discouraged. I wouldn't be surprised if pied BPs have some sort of disorder that we're not aware of. They certainly can't tell us if they're having visual disturbances or digestive issues. Or, the mutation may be quite benign. It depends on which gene and where along the gene the mutation is located, or if more than one mutated gene is working in tandem with another. I've heard complaints from some breeders that their pieds are picky eaters. If this turns out to be a common complaint, there might be evidence that there is some consequence of this mutation. Hope this helps.

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What she said ;)

Just to clarify a bit more as well, for those who haven't had the joys of developmental anatomy: neural crest cells are precursor cells in the embyro that contribute to a number of body systems, including the formation of melanocytes. Because they contribute to a number of other systems, a defect in the neural crest cell migration may well have effects other than just the white patches.

It seems as if mutation ball pythons and other snakes are, in general, healthier than selectively bred or mutation forms of other animals. I have often wondered if this may be because their systems are so much simpler, with every organ effectively having been so effectively streamlined ...

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Originally Posted by GenePirate

Actually, to really confuse the issue, any lack of dermal pigment, partial or entire, is called leucism. Piebald is an archaic term (such as the term "buzzard" when we really mean "vulture"). I believe the correct term for piebaldism is partial leucism. And, yes, these pied BPs are actually pied--or partially leucistic--whatever you want to call them. The condition is genetic, as Pete Kahl has proven, and the term used to describe animals that have stark white patches on their skin is "piebald" or "partially leucistic."

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There is also a theory floating around that the leucism in the pied isn't unlike that displayed in the spider and this is why Spider Pieds have all white body's and just color on their heads. It is thought that the two forms work together to form a verson of the Lucy. We also see this in the Lesser Pied. Seeing as how the lesser is the most drastic version of the het Lucy it makes since that the Pied and it work together to make a BEL..

HOWEVER.. there are whispers that RDR's Pied Lesser may be toting something else in there.. I've heard tell of Lesser Pieds that are just that Lesser colored Pieds.. Only time will tell

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

It seems as if mutation ball pythons and other snakes are, in general, healthier than selectively bred or mutation forms of other animals. I have often wondered if this may be because their systems are so much simpler, with every organ effectively having been so effectively streamlined ...

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I often wonder about it too....
In other organisms (especially higher level organisms), mutations that affect the phenotype often have deleterious effects.
Outside of a handful of bp mutations that come with “baggage” (caramels, spiders, cinnys, black pastels, etc.), the amount of vigorous mutations is surprising to me.
Are we over 100 base mutations yet? I stopped counting but we have to be. To me, that is a bunch of mutants with surprisingly few “negative” traits tied in.
I wonder what we will see with all of the crosses being produced.
I also wonder how many breeders are reluctant to share knowledge of "defective" mutants.

Side Note:

Joe glad to see you back around!!

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Side Note:

Joe glad to see you back around!!

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Thanks;)

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Originally Posted by GenePirate

Actually, to really confuse the issue, any lack of dermal pigment, partial or entire, is called leucism. Piebald is an archaic term (such as the term "buzzard" when we really mean "vulture"). I believe the correct term for piebaldism is partial leucism. And, yes, these pied BPs are actually pied--or partially leucistic--whatever you want to call them. The condition is genetic, as Pete Kahl has proven, and the term used to describe animals that have stark white patches on their skin is "piebald" or "partially leucistic."

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This post and the one before are both correct. I just didnt want to take it too far because I wasnt sure how much 'genetics' everyone here has followed.

But anyway, I guess the real reason I was curious is that it seems to me we should see more problems in BP's than we do, with the inbreeding and producing new morphs. Im certainly no expert, and I dont breed nor plan too, it just seems a bit strange from a scientific point of view. Also, I was curious if anyone bred a high white pied to a high white pied and had problems, like the fatal white foal's (Frame white overo x frame white overo) But like someone said, it may be different in snakes because of their much simpler digestive tracts, and pretty much everything else, than in horses. Im also curious if anyone has made any progress as far as seeing how many genes in snakes actually control color because most traits are polygenic. And if so, perhaps having so many genes control this "pied" color, there is kind of a "backup" that prevents major effects.

For the most part, color has been the #1 determining factor on breeding snakes. When people start trying to play with size I think we will see more problems pop up.

Not having any piebalds much less having raised a large number of piebalds for years I really can't say one way or the other.

I can report that I have lost two unrelated POSSIBLE het piebalds years apart to chronic constipation (and no non piebald project animals to this). The first one after soaking didn't work I took her into my vet who massaged a large bowl movement out. She then ate again but the problem came back shortly and she died. I took her in to the vet who dissected her and said that her intestine was thin and non muscular similar to a known genetic condition in cats called Megacolin. Doing some research and it sounds like its piebald cats that tend to develop this condition.

So, very circumstantial, especially given that I don't know if either ball even was het piebald. I’ve got lots of other possible het piebalds that I think are very likely het pieds that I’ve had for years without this problem. I've posted several times asking about constipation seen with the piebald gene and NOONE has come forward with any similar accounts of problems with homozygous piebald ball pythons.

That's really curious because megacolon is definitely linked to piebaldism in mammals. Granted snakes aren't mammals, but it's interesting food for thought. Thanks, Randy.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

i understand the question, i would like to x2 it too =p.

like if someone named the green tree boa an emerald green bc its literally made of emeralds, or is it just bc it resembles it.
did someone name the piebald pied bc it literally is pied? or is it just bc it resembles one?

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Those are 2 different snakes, but very similar.

You are wading into a very deep pool but I would like to offer this as some consolation. Holstein cows are widely breed and kept in the US and they are doing fine. Now I know some people will bring up negative points about Holsteins but my point is that they have been breed in captivity much longer than snakes and for the most part are fine. Thats not to say that we won't find a corellation between piebaldism and some negative trait but guess what. Negative pop out of wild populations all the time. I would be much more concerned with kinking or wobbling in carmels and spiders respectavely.

Randy that is very, VERY interesting to me about the lack of musculature in the bowel of your het pieds. It does seem to be incriminating as, without a doubt, megacolon and other digestive disorders are strongly associated with piebaldism in mammals (as already stated) due to the contribution of neural crest cells to enteric nerve plexuses.

However ... Yours were *het* pieds.

Does anyone know if heterozygous piebald mice have any digestive (or other health) problems?

Of course, then the really big question -- which I'm sure folks are reluctant to answer -- is: do pied ball pythons have a higher mortality rate than other mutations?

JayCee, I think you're very right that messing around with conformation, size, etc., definitely tends to lead to genetic health problems in animals much more often than color mutations ... However, all of these single-gene color mutations are due to SOME sort of defect in a protein SOMEWHERE in the animal. And for all those defective proteins, you would think at least SOME would have epistatic effects (effects on things other than just color/pattern) ...

My pied has zero issues with eating or digesting (that I'm aware of). I'll be breeding her next year (not sure to what yet) but if I ever have any issues I'll be sure to post them.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Not having any piebalds much less having raised a large number of piebalds for years I really can't say one way or the other.

I can report that I have lost two unrelated POSSIBLE het piebalds years apart to chronic constipation (and no non piebald project animals to this). The first one after soaking didn't work I took her into my vet who massaged a large bowl movement out. She then ate again but the problem came back shortly and she died. I took her in to the vet who dissected her and said that her intestine was thin and non muscular similar to a known genetic condition in cats called Megacolin. Doing some research and it sounds like its piebald cats that tend to develop this condition.

So, very circumstantial, especially given that I don't know if either ball even was het piebald. I’ve got lots of other possible het piebalds that I think are very likely het pieds that I’ve had for years without this problem. I've posted several times asking about constipation seen with the piebald gene and NOONE has come forward with any similar accounts of problems with homozygous piebald ball pythons.

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Megacolon is also a big problem in breeding high white rats as well.

An animal with megacolon has serious issues passing feces and fails to thrive and eventually dies. Anyone interested in megacolon in rats can read this article, i read it a while back and it had a ton of useful info.

http://ratguide.com/health/digestive/megacolon.php

Useful especially because a bunch of people on these forums breed their own feeders.

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Originally Posted by Serpent_Nirvana

However ... Yours were *het* pieds...

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Actually it's worse than that, mine where only possible het pieds. So my experience may not be useful at all except to raise the question based on the problems seen in other species as to if problems are seen in piebald ball pythons.

As far as problems in hets vs. homozygous that is also a very interesting question. I heard from one person that het caramels are also often kinked. I've not heard this from others and in fact have heard the opposite; that it's only the homozygous caramels where the kinking is seen in a het and homo mixed clutch.

Also, both of my animals where several years old before I noticed any problems. Even if people kept records and where willing to report it would be very hard to get an idea if certain morphs tended to be shorter lived than normals due to the long normal ball python life span. But it would be interesting to know which founder animals are still alive. I think Bob Clark's original albino was stolen, right? Was it ever recovered? I understand that the original clown and spider where both imported 20 years ago, are they still around? Most other founders would be much younger.