Communal Breeding....Gone Wrong

Okay...I'm new to this breeding rats thing. I mean, we've bred pet rats, and in small numbers...but I set up 14 tubs in racks intending to do communal breeding (I had read decent things about it...). I've got .4 females in all of the breeding tubs, and introduced males for the first time on 7/30. Had a litter 2 days ago that was completely killed off by either the boy in the tub or the mom...not really sure, but they were gone 2 hours after being born. The mom got hurt pretty badly in the whole thing as well and I had to put her down as well. :(

I took the males out of the tubs I was expecting in after that event, hoping to reduce risk a bit. Today, babies in 3 different tubs, somewhere around 40 in all. 2 moms in one tub, 1 in another, and 1 in the last all dropped today. Moms were fighting over babies in the last tub, dragging them all over, one of them hadn't dropped yet. I moved her into another tub so they'd quit fighting. Babies are good, the other 3 are working together. 2nd tub is working great, they are all helping. 1st tub, one mom hogged all the babies and has 23 of them to herself at the moment, not sure she can care for that many but she seemingly won't let the other females help.

So is this communal breeding just for the birds? The female that was stealing babies in the last tub dropped her pinks earlier and they were all killed. I've lost 2 full litters, got 4 seemingly good ones, but two of those one mom is trying to do all alone. Thats a higher mortality rate than I'm expecting. Is it just a process of weeding out the moms who dont' cooperate? I had intended on leaving dads in there all the time, but I'm not sure about that anymore either.

I'm frustrated, worried, and saddened by all the babies that have died the last few days, and want to do what I can for the ones the one mom is hogging, I don't think she can nurse them all.

Any advice? Do I just ditch this whole communal thing and set up a birthing rack or can it work?

Thanks.

I know a lot of people who dont have problems doing the whole communal birthing thing....although i personally feel more comfortable moving my pregos to a separate enclosure when i notice they are looking like they swallowed a pear. I have atleast 30 moms so its not a little operation I just take care of them every day and notice every little change in my colony. Ive had excellent success doing this, it just requires a little more space

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Originally Posted by BigLu

I know a lot of people who dont have problems doing the whole communal birthing thing....although i personally feel more comfortable moving my pregos to a separate enclosure when i notice they are looking like they swallowed a pear. I have atleast 30 moms so its not a little operation I just take care of them every day and notice every little change in my colony. Ive had excellent success doing this, it just requires a little more space

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That's about the same number of moms I have as well, so if I am to switch my method and put them on a firm schedule I'm going to be needing around 16 birthing tubs I guess. Not something I had planned on, but another litter or two like the previous one and I'm not going to have much choice, I won't keep needlessly sacrificing them.

I have 3 females in each tub but I rotate the males, never leaving the males in when there are pinkies. I have never had any issues and its been 2 years of breeding 20+ tubs of 3 females each. This may be your best option other than the communal thing. Hope this helps.

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Originally Posted by xscorpio

That's about the same number of moms I have as well, so if I am to switch my method and put them on a firm schedule I'm going to be needing around 16 birthing tubs I guess. Not something I had planned on, but another litter or two like the previous one and I'm not going to have much choice, I won't keep needlessly sacrificing them.

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I put all my prego females together. I do 4 pregos to each 20 gallon tank. and they stay in there untill all the babies are old enough to be off.

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Originally Posted by firehop

I have 3 females in each tub but I rotate the males, never leaving the males in when there are pinkies. I have never had any issues and its been 2 years of breeding 20+ tubs of 3 females each. This may be your best option other than the communal thing. Hope this helps.

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So right now I have 4 females per tub...could the one extra female throw it all off balance like that?

Setting up single Female Moms will give You the least deaths and most production.

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Setting up single Female Moms will give You the least deaths and most production.

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:gj: but the biggest problem is making all the racks needed for it and the space factor.

I hope to switch to individual birthing tubs soon. I do 3 females per concrete mixing tub. I just move my 2 males every week one right after the other and put females who werent bred in a tub with another male.

Thanks guys, I think a birthing rack is in the near future. Anyone got a link to one they specifically prefer? I used the Bailey's reptiles design for my breeding tubs, the ARS design is a bit more than I need for birthing tubs, at least for now.

For now, I'm doing my best to keep the peace and put the babies with good moms and separate the bad "communal" moms out for now, but I know they'll be just fine once it just "them".

Here is a pretty good link for rat racks and birthing racks and alot of info! I used his ideas for the rat breeding rack but had to put my own twist on it and I made up my own birthing rack just lloking at a few and got my own ideas. Here are mine so you can see.

Here is my breeding rack minus 2 tubs due to lowes being out when I got my supplies. I used clays measurements but had to only make it 4 high and not 6 due to the ceiling height in my basement so I just added another 4 to the right side of the original 4.
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...7211/001-5.jpg
This is the birthing rack I made all with my own measurements and what not. Made it only 2 shelves high but can always add shelves higher as needed and as the ceiling height will allow. But Clays birthing rack should suit you good for your larger scale operation.
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...211/002-10.jpg
I just started out 2 months ago and got my first litters starting last monday. I had all my females go within 7 days and got 50 babies from 5 moms and I have one prego yet. I have had a few that have died due to unknown reasons. I lost 4 babies total out of them 50. They weren't chewed on or anything I just found them all blue and not moving. Just thought I would show you my small setup. I started with three groups of 1.3 and am gonna raise a few females up to make a few more groups.

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Originally Posted by BLong7211

Here is a pretty good link for rat racks and birthing racks and alot of info! I used his ideas for the rat breeding rack but had to put my own twist on it and I made up my own birthing rack just lloking at a few and got my own ideas. Here are mine so you can see.

Here is my breeding rack minus 2 tubs due to lowes being out when I got my supplies. I used clays measurements but had to only make it 4 high and not 6 due to the ceiling height in my basement so I just added another 4 to the right side of the original 4.
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...7211/001-5.jpg
This is the birthing rack I made all with my own measurements and what not. Made it only 2 shelves high but can always add shelves higher as needed and as the ceiling height will allow. But Clays birthing rack should suit you good for your larger scale operation.
http://i711.photobucket.com/albums/w...211/002-10.jpg
I just started out 2 months ago and got my first litters starting last monday. I had all my females go within 7 days and got 50 babies from 5 moms and I have one prego yet. I have had a few that have died due to unknown reasons. I lost 4 babies total out of them 50. They weren't chewed on or anything I just found them all blue and not moving. Just thought I would show you my small setup. I started with three groups of 1.3 and am gonna raise a few females up to make a few more groups.

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What size pans are those you used in the birthing rack?

they are kitty litter tubs from walmart at 2.62 a piece. The dimensions of them tubs are 14"X10"X3.5". And I forgot to give you the link in my first post LOL. So here that is.
http://www.arbreptiles.com/cages/rat...ing_rack.shtml

some dollar stores carry those same kitty pans... ;):gj:

Well where were you with that info last week? LOL Thats is good to know though! What dollar stores carry them? I would like to know for future additions!!

I had a really mean male who would kill any newly introduced female and was beating up the girls, I ended up killing him and getting a friendly pet rat to take his place. We have only had one fight so far with pinkies that left 2 dead . We have left sons of the male(by accedent as I didn't bother sexing oops)there has been no fights between them. What works for some might not work for others. All my females are giving me 8-15 pinkies which live until something eats them.

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Originally Posted by BLong7211

Well where were you with that info last week? LOL Thats is good to know though! What dollar stores carry them? I would like to know for future additions!!

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Im not sure exactly which ones carry them. I think stores in bigger citys might be more likely to have them. The one in town didnt have any but i went to one nearby milwaukee and they had them

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Originally Posted by matt71915

Im not sure exactly which ones carry them. I think stores in bigger citys might be more likely to have them. The one in town didnt have any but i went to one nearby milwaukee and they had them

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Well the only dollar stores we have here are dollar tree and family dollar. So I am gonna have to check there. We also have discount store like biglots and stuff so if I find them cheaper at one of them I will let everyone know!:gj:

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Originally Posted by coldbloodaddict

Setting up single Female Moms will give You the least deaths and most production.

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Agreed! I had to often keep multiple moms together due to space issues and occasionally had torn up or killed babies. Keeping males in with mothers is even more of an issue.

I also used Clays design and currently have 5 racks running with 6 concrete mixing tubs each. They are each stocked with 1.5 breeder rats.
I do not pull pregos, and have been doing it this way for about two years.
I leave the same 1.5 group in the same tub for life, and do not have many issues.

What size are your female breeders?
I have found that female rats under 250g do not make good mothers. They will eat their own litter.

If you touch the pinks with your bare hands, some males, or even some moms will eat them. I buy the cheap plastic gloves at the dollar store for moving pinks during cleaning. (They are $1. for 100ct.)

I have 1 rack with 6 concrete mixing tubs stocked with 1.5 ASF's running the same way, and have no issues with them either.

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Originally Posted by rjk890

I also used Clays design and currently have 5 racks running with 6 concrete mixing tubs each. They are each stocked with 1.5 breeder rats.
I do not pull pregos, and have been doing it this way for about two years.
I leave the same 1.5 group in the same tub for life, and do not have many issues.

What size are your female breeders?
I have found that female rats under 250g do not make good mothers. They will eat their own litter.

If you touch the pinks with your bare hands, some males, or even some moms will eat them. I buy the cheap plastic gloves at the dollar store for moving pinks during cleaning. (They are $1. for 100ct.)

I have 1 rack with 6 concrete mixing tubs stocked with 1.5 ASF's running the same way, and have no issues with them either.

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I am going to do an experiment by leaving prego's in with the male and females in a few tubs and pulling females out prego females from the other and see which yield the most babies and which have a better baby survival rate. So far I have had 50 babies in 7 days from 5 moms and all of which were pulled from the breeder rack. I have had 4 total lost babies but none were due to the mother eating them. So I think this way works well. I am gonna tray and leave a few in tubs like I said. I keep 1.3 in the tubs so we will see what happens. Oh and out of them 5 moms one wasn't a good mother so I fostered out her babies and am giving her one more chance cause that was her very first litter and she gave 16 babies 3 of which died for unkown reasons.

I find deaths for unknown reason's with rodents is a missed feed, one missed feed puts that baby at risk as it's weaker and smaller then the rest.

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Originally Posted by rebeccabecca

I find deaths for unknown reason's with rodents is a missed feed, one missed feed puts that baby at risk as it's weaker and smaller then the rest.

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I thought that or an accidental crsuhing by the mother or something. But even still losing 4 babies out of 50 isn't bad at all!! :D