Breeding Ball Pythons - Some things to consider...

As Ball Pythons (and reptiles in general) explode in popularity, more and more people want to try their hand at breeding. Some do it because they love the animals and some believe it is going to make them rich. I figured I would take some time to point out some things from my experience that people may not think about before diving in to breeding. In the end, these are living, breathing creatures whose lives you are responsible for. Also, there is a tremendous amount of cost associated with keeping and breeding these animals. Some things to consider:

1. Animals - One of the things that I live by when it comes to this hobby/business is, don't spend more than you can afford to lose. These are animals and your success in breeding them and making back what you have put into them is NOT guaranteed. They could die, they might not breed or you may not be able to sell offspring for what you planned to. Take this into account and be smart about your investment.

Just like in any other business, the reptile industry has its share of scumbags. There are plenty of people out there who don't care about anything more than making a buck. They will sell you sick animals or misrepresent the animals that they are selling. Use caution, do your homework and buy your animals from reputable people. It doesn't take more than a few minutes of research to find out who the good guys are in this business. Sometimes it takes a little more time to weed out the bad guys. You'll need to make the ultimate decision about whether saving a few hundred bucks to buy from someone questionable is worth it to you.

This is not to say that there aren't a ton of great small breeders out there who don't have a recognizable name yet. I have personally met and become friends with many of these folks and they are where the RDRs, NERDs and VPIs were one day. Quality people that have yet to become a household name. People who are committed to producing amazing animals and treating people the way they expect to be treated.

2. Vet costs - Animals get sick, its a fact of life. If you don't have to ability to spend $200-$500 at the vet at any given time, then you shouldn't own or breed snakes.

3. Feeding costs - Be prepared to buy a lot of feeders or breed your own. Make sure that you have a local place to buy an appropriate sized prey item and that you will be able to afford the feed bill each and every week. If you plan to breed your own rodents, make sure that you have the space, time and money that it takes to take care of them. Just because these animals are feeders doesn't mean they deserve any less respect than the animal that they will eventually be fed to.

4. Caging and supplies - Make sure that you can afford to buy appropriate caging or that you have the skills/means necessary to build your own. I don't have the building skills so I have had to spend thousands of dollars in the last year on caging. Don't forget about all the necessary supplies that you will use. Disposable deli cups, cage liners, paper towels, disinfectants. This all adds up so be prepared.


5. Time - This is an intangible but a very important one. Having the necessary time to make sure your animals are kept clean and fed and records are updated is paramount to your success as a reptile keeper and ultimately a breeder. I spend many hours per week cleaning and checking my snakes and feeders. Some weeks I don't want to deal with it but it absolutely has to be done. There is no room to say, I'll do it next week.


Hope this helps!

Jamie

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2. Vet costs - Animals get sick, its a fact of life. If you don't have to ability to spend $200-$500 at the vet at any given time, then you shouldn't own or breed snakes.

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This part is often overlooked. I spent almost $600 between vet visits and lab work recently and that was on ONE snake.
There are many extra expenses you may not think of and when you have a bunch of babies, it can get get very costly. Don't fool yourself thinking breeding is a quick money making thing.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jglass38 again.

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Man, I hate seeing that little box. LOL.

A most excellent post, Jamie! :sweeet:

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Originally Posted by jglass38

5. Time - This is an intangible but a very important one. Having the necessary time to make sure your animals are kept clean and fed and records are updated is paramount to your success as a reptile keeper and ultimately a breeder. I spend many hours per week cleaning and checking my snakes and feeders. Some weeks I don't want to deal with it but it absolutely has to be done. There is no room to say, I'll do it next week. Jamie

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Jamie,
What an excellent post. I think #5 above may be one of the more overlooked aspects of keeping and breeding these animals. I have what I consider to be a modest collection, and I put at minimum 12 hours a week into my collection, and I might add, that I do not take care of the rats. Monica probably spends about 6-8 hours a week in the rodent room.

So often I read about people who think they are going to make a fortune off of theses animals, but I believe that most of your stated considerations have not been thought of. First and foremost, I believe, to be successful is a true love of the animals. To this day I enjoy going out on cleaaning day and interacting with my collection, even though it is 7-8 hours of picking up poop.

Very well thought out and stated post,

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jglass38 again.

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Fantastic post, Jamie! You are such an asset to both this site & this hobby! :sunny: :rockon:

K~

Thanks Steve and Robin!

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Originally Posted by muddoc

To this day I enjoy going out on cleaaning day and interacting with my collection, even though it is 7-8 hours of picking up poop.

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Thanks Tim! I think that is one of my favorite things. I love checking the snakes, seeing them grow and thinking about all the cool combos in the future. Of course not everything is fun. I despise keeping records. Its my least favorite part!

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Originally Posted by KLG

Fantastic post, Jamie! You are such an asset to both this site & this hobby! :sunny: :rockon:

K~

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:oops: I am only able to be that kind of asset because of Kevin and you and the other great breeders who have brought the Ball Python hobby to where it is today. You guys rock!

Awesome post Jamie ... and I believe the things you listed are root cause of the ever popular "Selling my collection" ads on KS. Face it, its a lot of work, and if you do not enjoy every aspect of it, you won't last.


Neil

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jglass38 again.

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Great post Jamie, hope it will help some people see the big picture, and all that is involve with breeding. It is not a decision to be made lightly.

this is definitely worthy of being a sticky :D

Absolutely best post ever Jamie! Mods, Admin...this deserves to be a sticky and a must read for folks thinking about breeding snakes.

That's okay GA, I got your back and gave him the good rep points he so richly deserved on this well thought out and wise post.

stickied! thanks for a great post jamie! :gj:

these are things that are so often overlooked. i too think time may be one of the biggest things people don't realize they will have to provide and it's true that you can't just say, i don't feel like it today--i'll do it tomorrow. many great points here, that i hope everyone will consider before trying their hand at breeding!

Great post, even if im only in it for my personal collection I like to think that people that do choose to breed look deeper than just the skin, and realize what all is involved to produce great snakes. Again awsome post.

Thanks all! I appreciate the kind words. I just say what I feel and hope that sometimes I can add value. :)

Great job! I see so many people buying multiple animals but don't have $ for a thermostat let alone Vet bills. This is not a cheap hobby and doing it correctly doesnt always come cheap. Taking in any living creature come with responsibility and becoming a breeder or just owning a few snakes should not be done on a whim. Breeding rodents is also a big undertaking and also needs to be done responsibly. Jamie you did an excellent job summing it all up. :rockon:

Very important thread Jamie I agee with you 100%. It should definitely be a sticky.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

5. Time - This is an intangible but a very important one. Having the necessary time to make sure your animals are kept clean and fed and records are updated is paramount to your success as a reptile keeper and ultimately a breeder. I spend many hours per week cleaning and checking my snakes and feeders. Some weeks I don't want to deal with it but it absolutely has to be done. There is no room to say, I'll do it next week.

Jamie

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Also before deciding to start breeding make sure your spouse/significant other is totaly on board. There is a lot of alone time in the snake room, a lot of time with just you and the snakes...not to mention all the time it takes to take pics, update feeding cards, update websites/myspace and scour the forums...If your significant other doesn't share your passion it will be difficult. I speak from experience.

That was awesome and very helpful!

I do have a suggestion. Maybe you could write up a post about for herp hobbyists thinking about breeding their babies and looking into morphs, what combos would be great to start out with. (I.E. Pastel, etc.) If suggestions are already covered in another post, hm, *goes to look*

Good post Jamie.


I think everyone here can apprciate you taking your time to write something like this that is so helpful to people new and old to this hobby.

For new people thinking about breeding whether it be GTP's to ball's it can open eyes up.

Also for new people starting to breed....listen to the adivce of expierenced breeders....don't be a cowboy and do it "your" way.

Thanks again man, much appreciated.


Mike :salute:

Rah-rah, Jamie!

One thing also to think of.............what to do with the babies if you can't sell them??????

With balls, there aren't as high a number per clutch, as say with a litter of boas, but is the future breeder / entrepeneur willing and CAPABLE (with room, supplies, food/vet $$, etc.) to care for the babies for the 30+ years of their lives if they don't sell, (hets, or spider sibs, instead of visible morphs) or to see that they go to a responsible, properly prepared home????

Maybe not quite like pups and kittens or other pets, but personally, if/when I breed, I want to know that my efforts are going where they will be well cared for. Otherwise, I'm no better than the fly-by-nighter who is willing to sell a baby burm to a little kid, just to make $100.

I'm disappointed I wasn't able to breed Hera last season, but on the other hand, keeping a rack of 30 babies would have been difficult, room-wise. I now have all the room I need/want, and have used the extra time to become better prepared. One more season for Daphne, before she's large enough to try, and then next year I can try for a clutch of balls. Again, I have more time to get my baby rack all set up, get the incubator fool-proof, and more research, so I'm better prepared.

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Originally Posted by monk90222

Also before deciding to start breeding make sure your spouse/significant other is totaly on board. There is a lot of alone time in the snake room, a lot of time with just you and the snakes...not to mention all the time it takes to take pics, update feeding cards, update websites/myspace and scour the forums...If your significant other doesn't share your passion it will be difficult. I speak from experience.

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My Wife likes ball python's but doesn't share my passion, there is one exception though when I breed my lesser's in the future and give her the blue eyed lucy she's always wanted I think she'll be into my hobby(lifestyle) a little more.:snake:

These are all things that have been on my mind lately....very glad to see someone post it up...and do such a good job of it, too! Thanks, Jamie!! :blowkiss:

I really love this thread. I had firsthand experience with clutches that went bad.. it cut deeply. I think that it also taught me what I hope people realize; these are living, breathing animals. Not eye-candy collectibles that will produce million-dollar babies overnight and make their owner rich.
I have something to add.. I am reminded of last year, of seeing the last egg, that I was holding out hope for, go bad and die. When I cut open the egg and saw the deformed baby snake, all intact and looking like a BP, I learned something. It was the same thing that I learned last year when I saw my friend's mare going nuts after her foal was born stillborn.. these are Lives that we are solely responsible for, for causing them to be and creating them. The least we owe any offspring that we cause, is to find them a good home and keep them until they are ready for such a home.
I have a plan for my normal hatchlings this year, that I want to sell. I am selling them with the proper enclosure.. it will not cost me much to buy a few tubs and furnish them with inexpensive hides, water dishes, etc. I will offer my customers the whole package.. (should the snake gods/goddesses bless me with the said hatchlings). Normals are too-often overlooked as byproducts of the morph industry.. I want to turn my hatchlings into quality pets. :)
Knowledge is like lighting candles. Think of us small-hobby breeders as big candles; by teaching your buyers the proper way to keep these snakes, and house them, it is like they are lighting a little candle off of your flame. And hopefully kindling a lifelong inerest in correct keeping of these snakes..

Geeze Jamie you mean I can't buy a couple of snakes, breed em and become an instant zillionaire overnight???? Well dang there goes that plan! :P

I fully agree with the post regarding the assurance that your spouse/significant other be supportive too, before breeding. My fiancee likes the snakes, but to be true, he "saw" breeding them as "a way to make back the money we spent on them." He is not the real owner/caretaker of the snakes; I am. I care for them and their feeders 100%. While Mark helped build the rack, I built the incubator 100% (well, with informational help from a few forum angels, hehe.)
But as the eggs are incubaing longer, and he is checking on them daily, his thoughts are changing in a good way. He is more in awe of the life that our snakes have created, and sees it more for what it really is; not a way to make back spent money. But a way to experience playing a part in new life, and create more baby snakes so that others can experience the joy of keeping a well-started captive-born-and bred gem of a BP. . :)

Jamie Glass...you are the proper definition of contributing member :gj:

*gives 5 star rating on this thread*

You nailed it Jamie! I wish people would understand that these are living, breathing animals that do indeed feel pain. They aren't just "money makers". I know of a guy who thinks he is going to "hit big" by "mass producing" his ball pythons and selling them on craigslist. Yes you heard me, craigslist. I know of his plans because sadly I know him in real life and he doesn't give two nickels worth of care about any of those snakes. To bad people aren't made to take and pass some kind of test before being allowed to own or breed an animal. To many people out there who just don't care, or care to learn the proper way(s) to keep any kind of animal/pet. To many people don't see the health and well being of that animal/pet being their responsibility. :(


Also Charlie you are right. It does help out a lot if your s/o knows what your plans are and it's even better when they are kind of in to reptiles too. I'm working on my guy. He's come a long way from hating snakes and thinking I was nuts for getting one to now "watching" them for me on cleaning day. He also will pet them. It also means a lot to now know that he will allow them to slither over the bed, his pillow, covers, etc. It was hard at first and still is in some ways to get him to "understand" but the snakes and myself are teaching him as we go. :)


What a great great great post!!!

Great post very well thought out. Now jamie thats not what you told jo just kidding put she put my pention into the snakes said it was a shure thing now I hear this. In the end it really comes down to if you love what you do it might pay for itself if not it gives us a few wonderfull experiance with wonderfull animals. Everyone thinking about gettting in to breeding snakes for money should read this post.

Great post Jamie. #5 - time is always overlooked; especially as one's collection begins to grow. I am amazed at how much time it takes to properly care for our snakes and their feeders.


I think you also need to have some ability to take and post pics . . . . you know we are always asking for pictures. :)

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Originally Posted by Alice

Great post Jamie. #5 - time is always overlooked; especially as one's collection begins to grow. I am amazed at how much time it takes to properly care for our snakes and their feeders.


I think you also need to have some ability to take and post pics . . . . you know we are always asking for pictures. :)

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Thanks Alice and everyone else that commented!


As far as the pictures, that one isn't coming so easily to me. I am a bad picture taker. I built a homemade light box last week but am still tweaking it. From what I have seen and heard, lighting is the key!

Great post Jamie, good to see it's a sticky. I think this applies to pet ownership in general, not just reptiles. :)

Great post brother!!!

That pretty much sums it up. Be willing to provide and care for them first and for most..

Great job.

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jglass38 again.

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excellent post!

I would give you some good rep points but apparently....I have to spread the love! :oops:

and on a side note, I am too stingy to sell any of mine!

I want to keep them all!!!!

and I can!

:P

lol.

Excellent. I wanna add that the time is really a big thing. Especially for younger people still in school. Im a sophomore in high school. As of now, I have 9 snakes and the breeder rats. You have to have time to take care of these guys-I spend maybe 3 hours per week. I also play on the football team and need time for homework. So just think things through and make sure that you have time to take care of these animals and fulfill any oter obligations you have.

Great post Jamie! (even tho you do wear little girls pink panties whenever possible =D)

I'd like to echo the vet bills and proper caging...really burns me when I see people saying things "oh I can't take my snake to the vet until I get paid" or not getting a proper cage setup because they can't afford it. :mad:

And the time...yeah...spent an hour just cleaning one cage this week. Big snake, big cage, big POOP. But I knew that going into it. When thinking about having a snake or another snake or another 10 snakes, you need to ask "am I ready to commit to cleaning up this animal's poo for potential the next several decades?"

Nice Jamie!! Great post, deffantly stickie worthy. You are a really great person to have around, always there to kick people into shape, and give them a spanking when needed! Your really snake savvy to boot!!:rockon: Jamie!

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Originally Posted by stangs13

give them a spanking when needed!

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Jamie is giving out spankings???

I have been a bad girl...very, very bad.

:D

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

Jamie is giving out spankings???

I have been a bad girl...very, very bad.

:D

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Not what I meant, but OK!:P

I must spread some rep before giving it to Jglass again.

Great post Jamie!:)

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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to jglass38 again.

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I have a plan for my normal hatchlings this year, that I want to sell. I am selling them with the proper enclosure.. it will not cost me much to buy a few tubs and furnish them with inexpensive hides, water dishes, etc. I will offer my customers the whole package.. (should the snake gods/goddesses bless me with the said hatchlings). Normals are too-often overlooked as byproducts of the morph industry.. I want to turn my hatchlings into quality pets. :)
Knowledge is like lighting candles. Think of us small-hobby breeders as big candles; by teaching your buyers the proper way to keep these snakes, and house them, it is like they are lighting a little candle off of your flame. And hopefully kindling a lifelong inerest in correct keeping of these snakes..

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This whole thread was great and Jamie has really been on a roll lately :rockon: , but the above quote touched me the most. Jennifer, I think that is one of the most awesome ideas. What better way to get someone started than to have all the proper equipment, a healthy baby, the babys records, the number of the local reputable herp vet and a link to this site :D

I for one am very thankful I found this site!

Thanks again all! This is a great community and a caring group of people. Its heartening to see how many of us are on the same page and are intent on educating those just starting out. You guys (and girls) all rock!

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Originally Posted by Ginevive

I really love this thread. I had firsthand experience with clutches that went bad.. it cut deeply. I think that it also taught me what I hope people realize; these are living, breathing animals. Not eye-candy collectibles that will produce million-dollar babies overnight and make their owner rich.
I have something to add.. I am reminded of last year, of seeing the last egg, that I was holding out hope for, go bad and die. When I cut open the egg and saw the deformed baby snake, all intact and looking like a BP, I learned something. It was the same thing that I learned last year when I saw my friend's mare going nuts after her foal was born stillborn.. these are Lives that we are solely responsible for, for causing them to be and creating them. The least we owe any offspring that we cause, is to find them a good home and keep them until they are ready for such a home.
I have a plan for my normal hatchlings this year, that I want to sell. I am selling them with the proper enclosure.. it will not cost me much to buy a few tubs and furnish them with inexpensive hides, water dishes, etc. I will offer my customers the whole package.. (should the snake gods/goddesses bless me with the said hatchlings). Normals are too-often overlooked as byproducts of the morph industry.. I want to turn my hatchlings into quality pets. :)
Knowledge is like lighting candles. Think of us small-hobby breeders as big candles; by teaching your buyers the proper way to keep these snakes, and house them, it is like they are lighting a little candle off of your flame. And hopefully kindling a lifelong inerest in correct keeping of these snakes..

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Great obervation !
I learned this from my first boa that I purchased 16 years ago.
The breeder tested my knowledge of the animal and after failing miserably he handed me a book and said come back in a week.
I read that book front to back multiple times and returned and purchased the animal that I still have . You must have knowledge of proper care practices before a purchase. With sites like this theres no excuse to be uninformed. Great job!!!!!!!!!

heh, most people I know who breed manage to make enough money to sink it back into the snakes. If you can make it support itself, I think you are lucky. I am excited to breed my snakes, but I am content to sit and learn, gather up supplies for a few more years while my females grow. Thanks for the helpful sticky!

Jamie, that list is perfect! Working in zoos and pet shops I've seen too many people buying snakes and other reptiles as impulse pets or because their bratty kid screamed for them to get it. It's so sad that many people will still sell animals to those families just to 'make the almighty buck'. I still hear various people in the reptile store I frequent now talking about making fast money off morphs and it makes me ill...

Yes, I have plans to breed on a SMALL scale next year, but these animals are my beloved pets first and foremost. My main reason for wishing to breed is to obtain one of my desired morphs that I would otherwise NEVER be able to afford (Albino), and eventually to be able to obtain a Spider female for my pastel male to get my ultimate morph (Bee). Money, mostly to cover what is spent on breeding mice, equipment, and extra electric bill charges, is a secondary reason only and mostly appeals to my BF.:)

I have been doing research into the methods, problems, and expenses of breeding both corns and BPs for months now. I have the supplies for a hatchling rack and the mini fridge to convert to an incubator stored away. I also have similar plans to Jen for my hatchlings, corn or BP: regardless of whether they are normals, hets, or morphs they will go to new owners with a 12qt tub, small plant saucer hides, water cup, printed care sheet, record sheet, and a card with the local exotic vets, feeder supply locations, and of course this site address. Potential new owners will be questioned on why they want the snake, what they know about them, and what they would do in case of illness or injury at the least.

I only wish more people could understand that these animals are not 'cash cows' or trophies...

Great post, I totally agree. I am a disabled man and I hate being disabled but it does alow me and my wife alot more time to spend enjoying, caring for, feeding time, taming time, studying and observing time with our animals.
It is easy to get pulled into buying a beautiful animal and I try to educate people about animals we sale. we learn more each day by studying, talking & comparing our information with others as well as information we have gathered ourselves.

Snakes Species List
Super Dwarf Retics 1.1 breeder!,Australian Spotted Pythons 1.1 breeding?, Ball Pythons
0.1 normal oddball breeder!
0.1 normal unproven WC breeder!
0.1 normal breeder!
0.1 goblin breeder?
0.1 pastel breeder?
0.1 "Het" pied breeder!
0.1 ghost breeder?
0.1 black granite?
0.1 black back breeder?
0.1 mojave 09
0.1 albino 09
0.1 reduced normal breeder?
0.1 spider 09
0.1 pinstripe breeder?
1.0 mojave breeder!
1.0 sable breeder!
1.0 pastel breeder breeder!
1.0 albino breeder!
1.0 bumblebee breeder!
1.0 pastel (pokey)
1.0 "Het" pied breeder!
5.5 babies (?=poss breeders, ! = Breeders, the symbols help me keep track of things)
Boas, Madagascar Dumerils Boas 1.1 breeders!, Rough Scaled Sand Boas 1.1 breeders!
My wife has lots of Beardies, ect.

Nice to meet everyone here and thanx!

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Originally Posted by jglass38

5. Time - This is an intangible but a very important one. Having the necessary time to make sure your animals are kept clean and fed and records are updated is paramount to your success as a reptile keeper and ultimately a breeder. I spend many hours per week cleaning and checking my snakes and feeders. Some weeks I don't want to deal with it but it absolutely has to be done. There is no room to say, I'll do it next week.

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This is a major one...i had just worked an 8 hour night shift and was coming home to go to bed. Went in to change the snakes over to daylight and noticed mites everywhere. I had to call work and take a day of leave and spent the next 12 hours cleaning snakes and tanks. By the end of the day i don't even remember going to bed.

Great post Jamie and hope people actually read and keep what they learn from it.