Hocotate (Hoco) - Anery Corn Snake Progression

So, this was somewhat planned. Wasn't outright expecting to come home with anything from my first reptile show today save if one specific corn morph was there, and, well... Here he is.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...480&height=640
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...480&height=640
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After Zebes, this little one feels so small and fragile, yet he's almost a year old already (born last June). Have him living in my bedroom in a QT tub for now. Little stinker pooped on me when I held him at the show. That's how I knew it was meant to be. :P

What a cutie! Corn snakes are great pets- but yes, you do have to be patient for them to get much "size"-also to watch their color changes. It's always nice to feel like you're the "chosen one" too, hahaha!

And just so you know for "next time", if you love snakes, it's nearly impossible to come home empty-handed from a reptile show. Our brains work in wild & mysterious ways, to justify whatever we buy! ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

What a cutie! Corn snakes are great pets- but yes, you do have to be patient for them to get much "size"-also to watch their color changes. It's always nice to feel like you're the "chosen one" too, hahaha!

And just so you know for "next time", if you love snakes, it's nearly impossible to come home empty-handed from a reptile show. Our brains work in wild & mysterious ways, to justify whatever we buy! ;)

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I really tried not to and spent what felt like half an hour holding him at the vendor's table. But the heart won over the mind. :rofl:

I'm fine with his growth taking time though, gives me leeway for future enclosure plans between him and the future VBB. And it just feels nice to "complete my redemption" after regrettably rehoming my first corn all those years ago.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

...And it just feels nice to "complete my redemption" after regrettably rehoming my first corn all those years ago.

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See? I knew you could find a "reason"! :rofl: "Hearts" usually get the upper hand (so to speak). That's why shows are so dangerous. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

What a cutie! Corn snakes are great pets- but yes, you do have to be patient for them to get much "size"-also to watch their color changes. It's always nice to feel like you're the "chosen one" too, hahaha!

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Is he too small though? Some quick searches say a yearling is typically around 3 feet and he barely looks 2 feet long if that (though it's hard to tell since he's always curled up). Granted I didn't weigh or measure him due to his long stressful day.

I know snakes can grow at different rates and all, plus how much/frequently they're fed, but I'm just curious if it's something to be concerned about. :confusd:

No, yearlings are often about 2'- don't believe everything you read- some ppl power-feed their snakes too. Yours looks fine & healthy! Corn snakes start off about 8-10" long when they hatch, & they can only eat pinkies for months, so they don't grow very fast normally. Even then, their food goes for energy (activity), not just growth. Commercial breeders do tend to feed on the light side, but either way, once snakes start eating bigger prey, they grow plenty fast.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

No, yearlings are often about 2'- don't believe everything you read- some ppl power-feed their snakes too. Yours looks fine & healthy! Corn snakes start off about 8-10" long when they hatch, & they can only eat pinkies for months, so they don't grow very fast normally. Even then, their food goes for energy (activity), not just growth. Commercial breeders do tend to feed on the light side, but either way, once snakes start eating bigger prey, they grow plenty fast.

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Oh that's a relief. Someone in another reptile group showed theirs at what they thought was around the same age as mine and it was huge, though they evidently misremembered when the pic was taken so the snake was undoubtedly older. Also that's on me for trusting a 10 second Google search. :P

Thanks for easing my worries. You know how it is when there's a new snake in the house. :oops:

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Oh that's a relief. Someone in another reptile group showed theirs at what they thought was around the same age as mine and it was huge, though they evidently misremembered when the pic was taken so the snake was undoubtedly older. Also that's on me for trusting a 10 second Google search. :P

Thanks for easing my worries. You know how it is when there's a new snake in the house. :oops:

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Yes, I DO know all about that, many times over! :rofl:

It's also possible that others got snakes that they only thought were hatchlings, or were told that, when in fact, they were a bit older. I've raised quite a few clutches of corn snakes, & some won't even eat, or at least not reliably, for a couple weeks- & even then, only very small pinkies. They can take time to "get going" strong. People buying a "baby snake" tend to think of it as just being hatched from the minute they take it home, lol. In their mind, that's the age they start from. News flash, it wasn't. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Yes, I DO know all about that, many times over! :rofl:

It's also possible that others got snakes that they only thought were hatchlings, or were told that, when in fact, they were a bit older. I've raised quite a few clutches of corn snakes, & some won't even eat, or at least not reliably, for a couple weeks- & even then, only very small pinkies. They can take time to "get going" strong. People buying a "baby snake" tend to think of it as just being hatched from the minute they take it home, lol. In their mind, that's the age they start from. News flash, it wasn't. ;)

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There's also the personal whiplash of going from a big, chunky BP to what is comparatively a living piece of string so he just looks extra small to me by default. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

There's also the personal whiplash of going from a big, chunky BP to what is comparatively a living piece of string so he just looks extra small to me by default. :rofl:

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Yup- there's "noodles" like rigatoni, & then there's "angel hair pasta". But they're all good. :D

Annnnnd I'm already helicoptering. Though kind of a good thing this time because the temps are a bit wacky. The ambient is in the mid-high 60's according to the thermometers I have on both sides of the tub so I cranked up the CHE to try and get it to around 70. All that did was bring the area directly below it into the 90's so I quickly turned the setting down. It was only in one tiny spot thankfully so he could easily avoid the overly hot area. The weather's supposed to warm up again soon and stay that way (the heating isn't the best in my house) so it should hopefully be okay until then.

I did find him resting where the heat mat is though, which I carefully set to the lower 80's so he's assuredly warm enough at least.

I know he's a corn and they're perfectly adapted to fluctuations and lower temperatures, but he's my new baby boy so I can't help fretting. :oops:

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Annnnnd I'm already helicoptering.... he's my new baby boy so I can't help fretting. :oops:

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You'd better be! It's in your snarent contract! :D

Was getting ready for bed last night and somebody was already out exploring. :snake:
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Going to get some pinkies for him tomorrow after work. Maybe a flatter water dish too since the current one is rather heavy and is making the bottom of the tub bow. Don't like how tall it is for a little guy like him either though I imagine he can reach it just fine.
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He's really cute. I'll never get tired of watching snakes explore their world.

Quickly weighed Hocotate for the first time. 24 grams. So small. When you're used to a ball python who's first weigh in was 95 grams, at a significantly younger age at that; it's like comparing a rolling pin to a toothpick. :rofl:

While putting in his records I also noticed he and Zebes share the same birth month (11th and 24th of June respectively), and his first weighing is the same as Zebes' birthdate. There's also a decent chance that, if things go as planned, my future VBB will also be born in June. Weird coincidences...

It has been a while since he last ate (I don't remember his exact last feeding but it was a little while before his breeder took him to the reptile show I got him from) and he's been cruising around on a nightly basis so I'm going to offer him a pinky tomorrow evening and see if he's interested.

I've done a blunder. According to this chart my little boy should start eating fuzzies (he's 24 grams), but I only got a couple fuzzies and a dozen pinkies. Should I do 2 pinkies per feeding until those run out?
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...40/unknown.png

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I've done a blunder. According to this chart my little boy should start eating fuzzies (he's 24 grams), but I only got a couple fuzzies and a dozen pinkies. Should I do 2 pinkies per feeding until those run out?
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...40/unknown.png

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I guess you'll have to- 2 or 3 pinkies instead of a fuzzie. Keep in mind that pinkies have less nutrition & are digested pretty fast, so if he acts hungry by days 5-7, I'd take his word.

Took two pinkies one after the other with no hesitation. :)
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Ate the second one backwards because of course. :rolleyes:

Seeing him (his size) with a pinkie, 2 is plenty for one meal. :gj: (It's hard for me to advise based on weights- I'm one that decides based on visuals.)

And yes, corn snakes (& colubrids in general) aren't like BPs- they don't typically refuse a second prey item. So WE need to make sure we don't over-do their meals.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Seeing him (his size) with a pinkie, 2 is plenty for one meal. :gj: (It's hard for me to advise based on weights- I'm one that decides based on visuals.)

And yes, corn snakes (& colubrids in general) aren't like BPs- they don't typically refuse a second prey item. So WE need to make sure we don't over-do their meals.

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Oh I'm almost positive mine would take seconds if given the chance. Even after a perfectly filling rat he'll still keep watching me like, "More?" :P

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Oh I'm almost positive mine would take seconds if given the chance. Even after a perfectly filling rat he'll still keep watching me like, "More?" :P

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Referring to your BP- wait a few years & see if that holds true. Many eat far more enthusiastically when young- it's when they're mature that they rebel over eating 2 items, ie. 2 adult mice (for example) which is why many keepers prefer to get them on rats. And as adults, they sometimes say "no" to any meal. Wait & see, once you've been keeping snakes for a longer time. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Referring to your BP- wait a few years & see if that holds true. Many eat far more enthusiastically when young- it's when they're mature that they rebel over eating 2 items, ie. 2 adult mice (for example) which is why many keepers prefer to get them on rats. And as adults, they sometimes say "no" to any meal. Wait & see, once you've been keeping snakes for a longer time. ;)

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It's in the back of my mind. Dreading the first "multi-month fast" ngl. Also why I'm keen on eventually getting a refusal taker for when that time inevitably comes.

Was cleaning the tub, and he's going into shed for the first time with me.
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Added a damp moss humid hide and sprinkled some water on the paper towels. Probably not overly necessary, but having a ball python has left me paranoid. :oops:

Hoco continues to outdo Zebes because here's a perfect, intact shed on the first go.
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It was past midnight and I was getting ready for bed but the poor guy was pressing himself around the sides of the tub trying to find something to eat since it had been nearly 2 weeks since he last ate and he's still working on finishing off the pinkies. Promptly got some thawed for him, but I offered the second one just a little too fast and he tail rattled. I don't think I've ever seen a corn do that before. Other rat snakes and friends sure but never a corn. :O He did take the second pinky though after I gave him a bit more time.

Sure they (corn snakes) do! Rattle their little furious tails, that is. :rofl: He's a real serpent warrior, didn't you know? :snake2:

That's what's so cool about corn snakes- they know how to be "real" snakes, but mostly they mind their manners with us.

His first real handling session.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...506&height=675
I've noticed how the red factor's pinks seems to "fade" the further away from the head you get, as well as the yellow streak near his belly.
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Also this squiggly little tail is too cute. :love:
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The session taught me some lessons on why he is different from my BP though:

First of which is that his grip isn't as strong, he actually fell from my arm (thankfully it was less than 2 feet and he landed on the shaggy rug and is perfectly fine). I'll be much more careful while holding him now.
Secondly, I need to be more wary of accidents because soon after I picked him back up he punished me for my blunder by dropping a massive dump all over my lap. :doh:

Small corn snakes don't have a strong grip, but larger corn snakes will be much stronger- & keep in mind that a snake that is not comfortable with you may intentionally let go at any time with an intent to flee, so you you always need to be a "spotter" (like in gymnastics- the side person that makes sure the athlete doesn't fall, & especially not in a way they get hurt).

For whatever reasons, some snakes just rely on us more to hold them, while others grip ridiculously tight (like my spotted python!)- anyway, I'm glad he landed well. He expressed his stress rather predictably afterwards...;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Small corn snakes don't have a strong grip, but larger corn snakes will be much stronger- & keep in mind that a snake that is not comfortable with you may intentionally let go at any time with an intent to flee, so you you always need to be a "spotter" (like in gymnastics- the side person that makes sure the athlete doesn't fall, & especially not in a way they get hurt).

For whatever reasons, some snakes just rely on us more to hold them, while others grip ridiculously tight (like my spotted python!)- anyway, I'm glad he landed well. He expressed his stress rather predictably afterwards...;)

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If anything these experiences are just making me glad I went with a corn after a BP. If going from a large, slow BP to a small, slightly flighty corn is giving me whiplash, I can only imagine it would've been twice as bad if I went straight to a VBB. :rofl:

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

If anything these experiences are just making me glad I went with a corn after a BP. If going from a large, slow BP to a small, slightly flighty corn is giving me whiplash, I can only imagine it would've been twice as bad if I went straight to a VBB. :rofl:

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I'm trying to imagine that too. :rofl: Be careful what you wish for, as they say. :rolleyes:

And when feistier types of snakes bite you to make you let go of them, that's not an excuse to drop them on the floor, allowing them to get injured. ;) You have to EXPECT that & cope.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I'm trying to imagine that too. :rofl: Be careful what you wish for, as they say. :rolleyes:

And when feistier types of snakes bite you to make you let go of them, that's not an excuse to drop them on the floor, allowing them to get injured. ;) You have to EXPECT that & cope.

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I'm steeling myself for bites for that very reason. Though I don't think what either of them can do could compare to the bites I've taken from the birds I've had over the years, including the green cheek conure I have now. I've even had little budgies draw blood before. :weirdface

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I'm steeling myself for bites for that very reason. Though I don't think what either of them can do could compare to the bites I've taken from the birds I've had over the years, including the green cheek conure I have now. I've even had little budgies draw blood before. :weirdface

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I agree that birds can do more damage, but birds bite & let go- not all snakes do. Or they bite repeatedly, when they're high-strung types like VBB. And you'll have many years to look forward to more of the same, lol. Please, just be sure that's what you really want to live with- a snake that's a literal "pain" to handle, lol. ;)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I agree that birds can do more damage, but birds bite & let go- not all snakes do. Or they bite repeatedly, when they're high-strung types like VBB. And you'll have many years to look forward to more of the same, lol. Please, just be sure that's what you really want to live with- a snake that's a literal "pain" to handle, lol. ;)

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I've already been living with a bird that would love to bite my face off roughly half the time for over a decade now, I think I'll manage. :rofl:

Taking after his "big brother" in the "dragging prey into the hide like a horror movie monster" technique. :P
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He's finally done with the pinkies.
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He did end up tagging me for the first time on accident, though he's so tiny it didn't even break skin. Really glad we're done with the multi-prey feeding shenanigans because it's just not a pleasant time trying to feed him like that compared to a one and done where I don't potentially spook him having to go back and offer more prey while he already feels vulnerable eating. Also going to give him coco substrate after he's finished digesting too. It's been a month and I've gotten tired of trying to find him between the layers of paper towels for every interaction.

Oh no, a tag from a baby corn snake? :O Their teeth feel like sandpaper at the very most- :rofl:

When I've raised corn & other snakes, I like to line the bottom with paper towel, then tear a towel or two into shreds & fluff them to hide in- they LOVE it. You can put one more towel over the shreds too- not "natural looking" but happy snakes. ;) It just takes a little time for corns (& most young snakes) to get braver about eating & such. Be patient.

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He's so squirmy it's hard to get a crisp pic. :P Still haven't changed out the substrate since life's been a bit crazy for me and just swapping out the PTs is easier for now. Also think I'm going to transfer him to his big boy home a bit early, sometime next month. Summer is approaching and I worry it'll get too hot for him in the upstairs bedroom since the house is rather old with poor AC circulation. He's been eating great, good consistent poops and looks perfectly healthy, and as far as I'm aware I don't think there's any hidden killer virus he could harbor like boas and pythons can.

Speaking of eating though...
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He finally upgraded to fuzzies. :D

It won't hurt him to be in a larger home, as long as he has cover. He's doing great, looks like. But as far as possibly harboring any deadly viruses to share w/ other snakes, yes he can. Sorry. Not saying it's "likely" but certainly possible. It's thought that colubrids can at least carry IBD, even if they don't themselves get sick.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...Reptarenavirus

And of course IBD is only one deadly snake disease, not the only one out there to worry about.

So can I just get some kind of tests done if I want to be absolutely sure? I don't want to risk him being up there all summer, and there's not really anywhere for him to go on the main floor.

Found this site. https://www.vetdna.com/

Not sure how it works though. Do you order the swab samples first then ship them with the saliva/feces with the submission forum showing what diseases you want them tested for?

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Found this site. https://www.vetdna.com/

Not sure how it works though. Do you order the swab samples first then ship them with the saliva/feces with the submission forum showing what diseases you want them tested for?

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"If you have questions regarding test results or related to testing procedures, please call R.A.L. directly at (972)960-2221 or fax to (972)960-1997."
(I clicked on "contact us")

Have to leave for work soon so I'll have to call for procedures later, but real quick these are all the things they test for.
https://media.discordapp.net/attachm...890&height=675
Aside from the obvious Arena/IBD, Nido and Crypto, is there anything else I should test for? Also going to get a testing done for my BP too while I'm at it since I might as well.

The Reptile Boid Panel plus the Crypto Panel looks pretty complete to me, but you might ask them what the difference is between those & the RNA tests- (<that might be more accurate, or-?)

Might be overkill, & it's not going to be cheap either. But you definitely don't want to be housing your corn snake where it will be too warm- or inconvenient, or putting your other snake at risk.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Found this site. https://www.vetdna.com/

Not sure how it works though. Do you order the swab samples first then ship them with the saliva/feces with the submission forum showing what diseases you want them tested for?

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Yes. Order swabs and they’ll send instructions along with them for how to send them back for analysis.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I knew it wasn't going to be cheap, but I figure it's a good price to pay for the peace of mind. That and someday I still plan to give an unwanted, neglected snake a home (be it from a rescue, Craigslist or wherever). And that will be a guaranteed case where I'll want to run tests. So might as well familiarize myself with the process now when the stakes are at a minimum.

Gave a call and the guy on the phone answered all the questions I had about the procedures. Ordered a small set of swabs so I can get the both of them tested, going with the two panels for Arena/Nido/Orphinian (I haven't heard of that last one before but it's part of the package deal) and crypto.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

Gave a call and the guy on the phone answered all the questions I had about the procedures. Ordered a small set of swabs so I can get the both of them tested, going with the two panels for Arena/Nido/Orphinian (I haven't heard of that last one before but it's part of the package deal) and crypto.

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:gj: You sure don't want your snakes to have ophidian (ie. "snake version") paramyxovirus.

https://wagwalking.com/reptile/condi...irus-in-snakes

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:gj: You sure don't want your snakes to have ophidian (ie. "snake version") paramyxovirus.

https://wagwalking.com/reptile/condi...irus-in-snakes

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According to the link it tends to affect certain hot species the most, probably why I haven't heard of it until now.

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

According to the link it tends to affect certain hot species the most, probably why I haven't heard of it until now.

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Yes, but it's been mentioned on this forum before, & honestly, it's been around for a long time. I'm sure our vets know about it, even if they don't see it daily. They rarely see IBD either, but for some reason that has had a lot more discussion on forums like ours.

I finally got the samples collected and shipped to the lab today. Zebes wasn't too bad with collecting the oral swab but Hoco is so small with my giant fingers that it was utterly nerve-wracking. Was only just able to swap his upper mandible to get the sample I was so nervous but hopefully it was enough. :please:

Good news, I just read the test results and both my boys are negative across the board! :D