Should I Breed? How Many to Breed?

What this thread is about - Should I breed? How do I breed? How many should I breed?

Lets address the first question - Should I breed?

Here is a little math just so you can see how this works (I assumed an avg 5 snakes - just multiply if you have more)

I assumed all the same size rats just for ease of math
5 snakes means 5 rats per week * 26 weeks (6 months) = 130 rats

To buy at the pet store = 130 rats * $4 = $520 (avg.)
To buy F/T from a .com = 130 rats * $0.92 = $120 (avg.)
($0.69 each rat + $0.23 ) ($0.23 is what is costs to ship each rat total = $30)

To breed = $146
I assumed 12 breeder females (to produce 10 feeders per week) and 2 males * $4 = $56 + Monthly Food/Bedding = $15 * 6 month = $90 (and you have to buy/build housing for all of them = $??)

Take this to a year: 260 rats
Buy F/T = $192 (since you could buy the whole year at once the per rat cost goes down)
To Breed = $236 (getting closer but still not worth it)

Breeding makes sense when your snakes will only eat Live but not when they will eat F/T. There can be other reasons to breed (like time to feed, wanting rats as pets as well as feeders, etc.) but for this purpose lets just stick to money as the reason.

So you have decided to breed so the next question is How?

I won't go into a lot of details here...there are tons of great threads on how to setup breeder tanks, or rack systems. Becky has an awesome food mix (sticky above).

The only thing to really talk about it quality. Yes most people forget that quality is everything when it comes to your breeders. These animals are going to produce the ONLY food your prize snake will eat. You MUST make sure they are healthy and well taken care of. Your goal should be large litters, healthy babies (that could grow into great breeders themselves) and breeders that live a long fruitful life. With this said...DO NOT buy your breeders from a big box pet store. Ever wonder why when you walk into Petsmart all the rats are big...usually because they are left over breeders (from a rat farm) or what was left over after all the good ones were picked up, not to mention alot of them carry Megacolon and other undiserable genetic traits. (If you want all the gory details about pet store rats just shoot me a PM). Find a breeder, your local reptile show can be a good place, others on this forum etc. You need to feed them a complete nutritious meal (this means variety and/or specific high quality rat breeder food). And yes, you need a Vet fund ready so you can take them to the Vet as needed (again I won't go into details but rats are prone to all sorts of issues - PM me if you want more details)

So you found some breeders now the big question - How many do I need?

To breed effectively takes more then just putting a boy and girl together - sure this will give you rat babies but will you have the right number or the right size at the right time? This line is key...the right number, right time, right size.

It is my belief and with lots of experimenting....that sets of 12 are the ideal number. What a lot of feeder breeders forget is that rats need a break after you wean a litter. They need time to regain weight, bone mass and minerals. Keep in mind there is only about a 2 week period when you can feed rats before they grow to big to be what most on this forum consider the perfect size feeders.

Here is how it works
* I typed this out in another thread and Thanks goes to Richard <Halfdawg> for this graphically version and littleindiangirl (for the initial layout - I think?)

Quick explanation of what you are looking at: The male goes in with the first female for 2 weeks (after 21-23 days the female gives birth, 4 weeks later the babies are ready to be fed off and the female gets 4 weeks to "vacation" - to gain weight, bone mass and nutrients before the male comes back to visit. Every 2 weeks the male moves to another tub.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ngCalendar.jpg

So why 12? Because 12 is the number of weeks it takes for one female to start the process and complete the birth, weaning and rest before starting over. So with 12 breeders that means every week you will have 1 litter ready to be fed off. If you assume 10 weaned babies each week (this is a very broad average) you can then figure out how many sets of 12 you need. ie. if you need 20 feeders per week you need 2 litters every week so that means twice the number or 24 breeders, need 30 feeders you need 36 breeders, etc. etc.

I have this same setup but using 5 females for each week (60 females total) and for the past 3 years and have always had the correct number of feeders needed (any excess are sold off to a local pet store or friends)

You can work with less females but you will stress their bodies by over breeding them without the necessary rest period so they will die quicker and produce less.

This system is designed so you produce all the feeders that are required each week...you can have less breeders if you want but the risk is the need to occassionally buy extra feeders (bad week, small litter, sick breeder, etc.) or to feed F/T on occassion.


Hopefully this information helps anyone considering breeding and with the question of How many?

I have had several people ask about this information over the past few months and Halfdawg (Richard) suggested I post the graph to help everyone visualize the breeding Calendar. Hopefully this is helpful for some. If you notice any glaring issues please let me know so I can correct them. :)

Not for self promotion in anyway, but I did originally have a 10 female set up as well. It's also in the feeder section. The major difference is the females only get 3 weeks off instead of 4.
http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=52380

The 12 female set up was Lord Jackels original layout, I just transferred it to excel for better visualization.

Its great to see what a little team work can do. When we are all heading to a common goal of providing the best care for our Rats and the best food for our Herps.

Richard

Thats what I'm talking about! I say we make our own club. The club for promoting excellent feeders, or something like that. LOL, oh well, I like the extra work I guess. ;)

Sticky worthy!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by catawhat75

Sticky worthy!

---

Thanks...I am glad you found it worthwhile and helpful. :carrot:

Excellent work! Definitely worth being stickied. As soon as I get a new color cartridge this is a print-out worth having. Good job Sean! :)

Awesome work, Sean! Very excellent, indeed! 'Tis stickied!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JLC

Awesome work, Sean! Very excellent, indeed! 'Tis stickied!

---

Thanks Judy I am honored you found it so valuable.

Joanna...thanks for the kind words...when I printed out the table the paper was wet from all the ink...LOL :P

So, let's say I'm breeding mice instead of rats... Would you say that a 9 week cycle is appropriate? (3wk gestation, 3wk weaning, 3wk break)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CntrlF8

So, let's say I'm breeding mice instead of rats... Would you say that a 9 week cycle is appropriate? (3wk gestation, 3wk weaning, 3wk break)

---

This sounds right for mice - which also means you only need 9 breeders for the weekly system.

Gestation in mice is 19-21 days
Weaning is about 21 days

Only thing to note is that mice can not breed for as long as a rat. Most rats have an effective breeding life of about 1.5 years while mice are only good for about 8 months. So in planning just keep in mind you will only be able to breed each mouse 4-5 times.

Thats about the same amount of time you will breed a rat. If they're good for 15 months, and with being bred on a 3 month schedule, you should in theory have only 5 -6 litters per rat. Unless you take them to the full 2 years of breeding status.

Yeah I understand that.

Right now I've got 4bp's.. An adult female that will ONLY eat live mice (tried everything else, including all the scenting tricks and stuff) 2-3 per week is a good meal for her, two sub adults will eat almost anything 1-2 mice each per week, and the fourth is a juvenile who seems to be content with anything I give him so far, but he's only had live with me, and would be good for 1 maybe 2 mice a week once he's back in "good" condition.. He's named Bones for a reason, after all...

So, all tolled that's 5-9 small adult mice per week, and will be going up from there as I add more. I could probably get away with 7 breeders on the same schedule (2 week "down time" with no new litters at the end of the cycle), since a full litter of mice is typically 10-12 and at least 2, possibly 3 of mine will eat F/T without complaint.

EDIT: Also, breeding mice instead of rats gives me the luxury of not needing to worry about what to do with my breeders when they're done breeding. They just get added to the menu for the snakes...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Thats about the same amount of time you will breed a rat. If they're good for 15 months, and with being bred on a 3 month schedule, you should in theory have only 5 -6 litters per rat. Unless you take them to the full 2 years of breeding status.

---

Close but if you take out the rounding -

The mice schedule is about 9 weeks (~2 months) so in 8 months you could breed them 4 times.

Rats breed on 12 weeks (3 months) so in 18 months (1.5 yrs) you could breed them 6 times

2 more times for rats equates to 6 months of breeding time which is enough time for it to be significant that people need to remember mice cannot breed for as long. ;)

Hey Everyone...the wonderful Judy was kind enough to attach the excel file to my original post so anyone that would like to download the chart and tweak it for their own use please feel free to.


Enjoy

Thanks again Judy. :D

Awww...my pleasure! I'm just here to help! :oops: :D

Great info Sean! Thanks

Hmmm I'd need an Excel sort of program for that wouldn't I (totally computer stupid here folks...be kind LOL)?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by frankykeno

Hmmm I'd need an Excel sort of program for that wouldn't I (totally computer stupid here folks...be kind LOL)?

---

yes you do...but if you have another format(program) that works for you just shoot me a PM and I will try and convert it for you. :)

Hm, the only thing I might disagree with is the cost of breeding versus f/t purchase.

Purchasing the initial animals and their cages is a one-time investment that doesn't have to be repeated. So, after the first year, you're only paying for the cost of food and bedding. That comes out to only 180 per year. If you need to get new breeding stock, you can always trade some of your extras, or sell some off to cover the cost of the new animals. You quickly recover the extra you spent setting them up, and from there it's significantly cheaper to raise your own, though it is labor-intensive.

I agree, this was a very helpful post.


Currently, my mind is a tad foggy, but later when it's cleared some, I'm going to attempt figuring out how I can make it so that I have fuzzy-sized rat babies each week. And, I do believe this is going to help me out in the long-run. Thanks for posting this!

A good rodent food really makes a diffrence as well.
We feed our's mazuri 6F for our rats / african rats / gerbils ect and it works great. And with a rest period in between breeding they bulk back up just fine. Hope this helps.:bow:

Excellent post, thank you for the information! In regards to the cost analysis: The cost comparison was made for a one year period with various amounts rats. This doesn't seem to include, however, if you keep resupplying your own breeders over many years. So there would only be the initial cost of buying the rats the first year, after that it would be just maintenance. So in the long run, the differences in cost between raising your own vs F/T would be amplified. correct?

How many female rats can you keep per tub/enclosure?

JonV

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nevohraalnavnoj

How many female rats can you keep per tub/enclosure?

JonV

---

I personally use the concrete tubs (not extra large) and they can easily hold 1 male and 3 females. I prefer to not go anymore than 4 rats in a tub, even though I know some people would say you can do a group of 5 total.

If you think about it, using 1 litter per week, 12 female rats, you will have
3 tubs dedicated to a mom raising a litter,
1 tub for the mother that will give birth in a few days
1 tub with girls that have been with a male for 1, 2 and 3 week(s)
2 tubs with girls getting a break, or raise ups
1 tub of weaners

7-8 tubs total, easily met in a rack setup.

That's how it works out for my colony anyways.

I can't get the file on the opening post to open. I am on a Mac but I have microsoft office programs installed as well.

Is the file offered the graph already shown or is there more to it?

Typically I can just drag & drop attachments but my system is recognizing this as a link & it just opens up a blank page.

:-(

This post rocks!

Just a question.. what are some reputable dot com f/t sites to buy from at that $1 price range?

All I have found are still in the $2+ range...

My only question is on size of the rat to breed I have some that I are smaller then the 2 a have preg. right now. But I am pretty sure they are of breeding age at what weight should I breed or size should I breed them, because I know if I weight to long they have a chance of having a harder time.

It is optimal for the female rat to wait until she weighs 250 grams. As to what age she will be before she reaches that weight is completely dependent upon the quality of the animal itself. If you start off with a cheapy dollar or two rat from a local feeder bin, that rat might go it's entire life & never reach 250 grams.

it is harder on the animal if you go too early as well as too late

You also need to give the breeding female a rest in between weaning the litter & the next pregnancy. Back to back breeding is just as hard if not harder on the animal as breeding them too young or two old.

Ok, yeah I don't want to have them breeding to young or to old

awesome post good comparison but when buying frozen rats or mice you have to take into account the shipping which is expensive due to the dryice and added weight so personally i think breeding your own would be more cost effective and you get more rat for your buck than spending it on shipping.

Also what kind of dog food are you guys useing?

so if i have 3 snakes 2 of which eat mouse sized rats and one snake that eats small rats, would a 4:1 ratio of females to males rat set up work?

Wondering how many litters you get out of a female before she is replaced?

Thanks for hte chart. very helpful

Incredible thread, thank you for posting this. I began jotting notes to figure how many breeders I would need then decided to see what kind of threads were out there and you answered my questions to the "T". But here's a question that wasn't addressed from what I can find. I currently house my rats that are left over from over purchasing in kitty litter. I had an issue with the urine odor and the kitty litter works incredibly well for the smell and the rats do fine until the following feed schedule. So my question is do you think the kitty litter will pose health issues in breeding colonies.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hovafl

Incredible thread, thank you for posting this. I began jotting notes to figure how many breeders I would need then decided to see what kind of threads were out there and you answered my questions to the "T". But here's a question that wasn't addressed from what I can find. I currently house my rats that are left over from over purchasing in kitty litter. I had an issue with the urine odor and the kitty litter works incredibly well for the smell and the rats do fine until the following feed schedule. So my question is do you think the kitty litter will pose health issues in breeding colonies.

---

Kitty litter is one of the worst choices.

I am looking into starting a colony as there is no one selling feeders in my area. I have experience breeding feeders from when I worked at a zoo, they housed them all in one fishtank and I feel like that would be cruel, especially as my main selling point is the fact I will keep all humanly and am a Veterinarian Technician (I am in Canada, its a different type of technician then USA), back to my original reason for response...

If I was to have

1 for vacation
2 for growing, M and F
1 cage for non breeding f (large)
2 cages for breeding

so 6 tanks total with 12 females and 2 males would that be enough? would I need more cages?



http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ngCalendar.jpg

Correction

2 for growing, M and F
1 cage for non breeding f (large)
2 cages for breeding (males always in one)
1-2 cages for nursing

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by katio92

I am looking into starting a colony as there is no one selling feeders in my area. I have experience breeding feeders from when I worked at a zoo, they housed them all in one fishtank and I feel like that would be cruel, especially as my main selling point is the fact I will keep all humanly and am a Veterinarian Technician (I am in Canada, its a different type of technician then USA), back to my original reason for response...

If I was to have

1 for vacation
2 for growing, M and F
1 cage for non breeding f (large)
2 cages for breeding

so 6 tanks total with 12 females and 2 males would that be enough? would I need more cages?



http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j2...ngCalendar.jpg

---

The spreadsheet link on page one no longer works, can anyone repost it?
Thanks,
Steve

Just curious, does this work for mice as well or? Need some for my corns and so I'm trying to plan these out as well, and so I'm curious if this work or if anyone knows of a proper one for mice? Thanks!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rakshasi

I agree, this was a very helpful post.


Currently, my mind is a tad foggy, but later when it's cleared some, I'm going to attempt figuring out how I can make it so that I have fuzzy-sized rat babies each week. And, I do believe this is going to help me out in the long-run. Thanks for posting this!

---

The time table should be the same, you're just harvesting the feeders at a different time. If I'm reading this right, once you have the system fully running, you should have several litters of different sizes at any given time and be able to collect them at whatever size you need them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MisssMariee

Just curious, does this work for mice as well or? Need some for my corns and so I'm trying to plan these out as well, and so I'm curious if this work or if anyone knows of a proper one for mice? Thanks!

---

It's already been stated that this system will work with mice, you just have to adjust the rotation times and keep in mind that mice have a shorter period where they can viably (not to mention safely!) breed. I've personally kept a very small colony of mice before so the only thing I want to add is this; be careful reintroducing the female mice to the male during rotation. Mice are highly territorial and do not react well to newcomers entering a cage that smells like them (the resident mouse). I always suggest fully cleaning the tank/cage and rearranging all the objects kept in the tank afterwards when introducing mice to the same tank/cage (yes, even if they have met before!). I had one female that would pick a fight with her sisters every time I reintroduced them, even though she had been raised with them.

Zombie Thread Alert

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Zombie Thread Alert

---

Wait, what?

Anybody have any advice about the best tubs to use for this system? I'm dabbling in rats at the moment and really enjoying it. The set of 12 system would work perfectly to feed my group of snakes right now. I'm looking to build a rack soon and try and get this going, but I'm kind of stuck on what a good tub to use is. It seems like most of the standard breeding tubs are for housing 4+ breeders in a bin, and that seems like a huge waste for this setup.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by satomi325

Zombie Thread Alert

---

x2

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CryHavoc17

Anybody have any advice about the best tubs to use for this system? I'm dabbling in rats at the moment and really enjoying it. The set of 12 system would work perfectly to feed my group of snakes right now. I'm looking to build a rack soon and try and get this going, but I'm kind of stuck on what a good tub to use is. It seems like most of the standard breeding tubs are for housing 4+ breeders in a bin, and that seems like a huge waste for this setup.

---

Instead of reviving a 8.5 years old thread you might want to create your own, most people do not revisit old threads.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deborah

Instead of reviving a 8.5 years old thread you might want to create your own, most people do not revisit old threads.

Sent from my SM-T320 using Tapatalk

---

Yeesh. Didn't know a stickied thread was considered a necrobump. If y'all don't want people posting in the threads at the top of the board perhaps you guys should just lock them?

didn't realize how old the thread was