ASF Tell ALLS... Finally decided to reveal to my BP.net brothers and sisters....

I have decided that it is not fair of me to not share my trade secrets any more... This site has given too much for me not to give back the best I can. What I am about to share will cut your production costs to pennies (about 7 cents for an adult ASF.) While some of it may sound questionable, it has been tried tested, and documented. Trust me.

Feed: I started out feeding Mazuri 6F. It is without a doubt a good food for ASF's but grossly overpriced. The feed I use, and will continue to use for the rest of my days is 100% Country Acres Hog Feed 16% protein. It costs $10 per 50lb bag. I have been using it exclusively for more then 6 months. I have already had full generations on it. That means from pregnant mom, to baby, to baby growing up, to baby becoming pregnant, to growing her babies. It has had no ill effects on production numbers at all. In fact, in several instances production was slightly increased. I have many pages of spreadsheets proving this (no, I'm not going to share that :colbert ):

When switching to this feed, the only thing you will really notice is larger, less frequent poops. This worried me at first, but the numbers prove it is NOT an issue.

Feed Dispenser for breeders: LOL, as one of the founding pioneers of food hoppers, many of you will be shocked to know what my new dispenser looks like. I experimented with many different ideas because the Hog feed comes in little tiny kibble. Well, my new dispenser is absolutely no dispenser at all! Finally I realized (after spending hundreds of dollars over time) that they are rats. They are dirty, scavenging creatures. Now I simply dump the measured amount of hog feed in a pile on top of the substrate. Will they pee and poop on it? YEP. For the first few days they will. After the first few days though to my surprise they learned to ALWAYS pee in a particular corner, and never in the food area. Yes the feed does get mixed into the substrate and poop, and even under it, but that simply doesn't matter. They know where it is and will get it as they eat. Sound unhealthy or cruel? Stop thinking like a human and start thinking like a rat.

Feed Dispenser for grow ups: a 2 foot piece of 2" pvc pipe with a 45 degree angle on end with hardware cloth got glued to the feeding end. suspend it from the middle of the top screen so the top sticks out allowing you to add food without having to open the tub.

Feed Amounts for the breeders: Wow, I was wasting SO much food in the beginning. I had no idea how little food they actually ate compared to what they just chew up and spit out. I keep my breeders in 1.2 groups. an actively breeding group gets no more then 125 grams of hog feed every 3 days. You will be AMAZED at how little 125 grams actually is.

Feed Amounts for the grow ups: I always keep the PVC pipe full. The grow ups don't waste food like the adults. The majority the ends up on the ground is eaten by the younger grow ups.

Substrate: Sun Coast Horse Bedding. Large Pine Flakes. It is dried and the flakes are big and fairly heavy. I will use this substrate forever because it is CHEAP and works in my opinion better then anything else. Like most compressed bags it claims to be like 9 square feet compressed. Unlike all the others though, It really is a HUGE amount once uncompressed. I would say it is about twice as much pine as any other kind I have previously purchased. The price? 7 bucks a bag. A benefit of this substrate: It has some large enough chunks for the rats to chew, so I don't have to put any chew blocks or toys at all.

Cleaning: I can clean all of my grow up tubs and 20 - 10 gallon breeder tanks in 45 minutes. I no longer wash them out at all. I simply scoot the rats to the non potty side of the tank or tub and shop vac the nasty stuff out. I do this once a week. Usually I only have to suck out about 1/3 of the substrate. then i scoot the remaining old over to the potty side and put new on the clean side. This way of cleaning requires MUCH less effort, and does not waste substrate.

Think about it...

The food: This will cut the price of your purchase food by about 60% compared to Mazuri 6F. If you measure the feed you will cut the amount of food you are giving by AT LEAST 50% (I know this is hard to believe, but if tried, you will see) Add those two together, and for every $10 dollars you spend in food now per month, you will spend $2 - $3 dollars after the change.

The substrate..

This substrate has twice as much substrate compared to other comparably priced brands. That cuts your purchase price in half. You will use AT LEAST 50% less substrate by eliminating wast. Add those two together and for every $10 dollars you spend in substrate now, you will spend $2 - $3 dollars after the change.

Put the food and substrate together and where you were paying $20 dollars, you are now paying $5 dollars. The side effects? There aren't any. Oh yeah, and you never have to spend another penny on food hoppers for your breeders.

Everyone has their own way of doing things. I just wanted to share my way. In these tough times it is the least I can do to help my fellow herpers out.

Sincerely,

That's awesome! I never used feed hoppers either, they weren't built into the racks I got, and I never installed any. Usually the food went on top of the rack wire, and if I used smaller food, it fell through and was in the substrate, and the rats did just fine.
I realized I was overfeeding the adults too! They wasted tons of food, hiding it everywhere and never eating it, since I'd put MORE food in when the stuff disappeared.

Thanks for posting.

Interesting way you clean, that seems like a good idea because im my tubs the front is always the dirty part. If I still bred asfs id probably do that.

Forgot one thing.... the wheels are all history.

Why I wanted to get rid of them:

1.) They were a constant pain to deal with.
2.) The were expensive.
3.) Even the good metal chrome covered ones would wear out in less then a year.
4.) The wheels themselves were disgusting. They were caked with pee goop even though I attempted to spray them clean weekly. I noticed that a lot of the smell was coming from the wheel itself, and the glass behind the wheel that was also covered in pee goop.
5.) They got in the way when cleaning
6.) With literally 30 wheels spinning 24 / 7 at any given time at least 3 or 4 were squeaking. I am talking about LOUD squeaking that could be heard in the living room. It was driving everyone (especially my wife, kids, and dog) crazy. I constantly lubricated them but that was constant maintenance as they would always start again soon. Don't know what was worse, the constantly squeaking wheels or my wife pestering me about squeaky wheels.
7.) I wanted to see if they were even necessary.

When I first pulled them out, all hell broke loose. The breeding groups started fighting, babies and weiners were killed, and the males would CONSTANTLY bang their water bottles against the glass in protest. One male actually slammed the glass bottle and metal holder hard enough to put a crack in the tank glass!

The solution was that I fed 100% of them off, and set up all new breeding groups from kids that had never even seen a wheel. Now everyone is happy. I was surprised to see that removal of the wheels had no negative effects on breeding numbers, weight gain or general health. The only real change I noticed is that now the moms spend a lot more time with the babies... but still the baby growth rate is on average the same.

Wheels are obviously the choice of the keeper.... but I have proven to myself that they are NOT needed... and when you produce large numbers, life is much easier and cheaper without them.

So, if you look in my breeder tanks you will only see four things.

1.) Rats (and rat poop :) )
2.) Pine shavings
3.) Hog kibble on the substrate
4.) water bottle

That makes sense. I just have a 1.3 colony, but I always like to save money. And you've just confirmed what I've been thinking about the wheel; It needs to go. I've had my ASFs for three weeks and they are absolutely obsessed with the wheel. Every time I go in to check on them (and I do mean every time) they are all four playing on the wheel together. I told my wife "I don't think we'll ever get babies because they can't stay off that wheel long enough."

Thanks for all the info. :gj:

Thank you for your insight, Mike. I never would have imagined a feeder could be grown so cheaply if you hadn't lined it out. And we all know you have the experience to back it up!

Is the Country Acres a Purina product? I'm trying to find someplace near me where I can get hold of it.

The wheels drive us nuts sometimes here too. Shawn and I just look at each other and say, 'the meat is jogging again!'. LOL

Mike, thanks very much for this info!

This post would make a fine sticky . . . . (Hint, hint)

Meantime, I am emailing it to myself, so as to have it available in my "Long Term Storage" folder!

~Bruce

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Forgot one thing.... the wheels are all history.

Why I wanted to get rid of them:

1.) They were a constant pain to deal with.
2.) The were expensive.
3.) Even the good metal chrome covered ones would wear out in less then a year.
4.) The wheels themselves were disgusting. They were caked with pee goop even though I attempted to spray them clean weekly. I noticed that a lot of the smell was coming from the wheel itself, and the glass behind the wheel that was also covered in pee goop.
5.) They got in the way when cleaning
6.) With literally 30 wheels spinning 24 / 7 at any given time at least 3 or 4 were squeaking. I am talking about LOUD squeaking that could be heard in the living room. It was driving everyone (especially my wife, kids, and dog) crazy. I constantly lubricated them but that was constant maintenance as they would always start again soon. Don't know what was worse, the constantly squeaking wheels or my wife pestering me about squeaky wheels.
7.) I wanted to see if they were even necessary.

When I first pulled them out, all hell broke loose. The breeding groups started fighting, babies and weiners were killed, and the males would CONSTANTLY bang their water bottles against the glass in protest. One male actually slammed the glass bottle and metal holder hard enough to put a crack in the tank glass!

The solution was that I fed 100% of them off, and set up all new breeding groups from kids that had never even seen a wheel. Now everyone is happy. I was surprised to see that removal of the wheels had no negative effects on breeding numbers, weight gain or general health. The only real change I noticed is that now the moms spend a lot more time with the babies... but still the baby growth rate is on average the same.

Wheels are obviously the choice of the keeper.... but I have proven to myself that they are NOT needed... and when you produce large numbers, life is much easier and cheaper without them.

So, if you look in my breeder tanks you will only see four things.

1.) Rats (and rat poop :) )
2.) Pine shavings
3.) Hog kibble on the substrate
4.) water bottle

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I agree with Mike 110% on wheels. If you do not want to maintain wheels and squeaking, and the possibly injury or death.. DO NOT INTRODUCE RATS TO WHEELS.

They go berserk at first without them, and it takes a few weeks of high stress before they calm back down, if they ever do.


Good write up Mike, it's always nice to see how someone else does things. (Although, I still dont know how you deal with all of those glass tanks! *back ache city* :P)

Yes I believe the country acres is in fact a Purina product.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

(Although, I still dont know how you deal with all of those glass tanks! *back ache city* :P)

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They are 10 gallon tanks. :gj: they only weigh like 5 lbs if that!

I loved the wheels when i first got them, but now i totally agree with you they are a pain in the butt! But i knew something would happen if i removed them, so every 3 days or so i take them down, scrub them and oil them (olive oil). Its only two so its not much trouble.

i did the same when i had my asfs.
i still use that feed for mice its $8.49 from tsc here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juddb

I loved the wheels when i first got them, but now i totally agree with you they are a pain in the butt! But i knew something would happen if i removed them, so every 3 days or so i take them down, scrub them and oil them (olive oil). Its only two so its not much trouble.

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I found mineral oil works better than olive oil, like, where olive oil works for a day or two, mineral oil works for weeks, unless they really wear it out. :P


Oh, and I don't use wheels in any but young breeding groups, where they have more time to waste instead of being focused on breeding.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Feed Dispenser for grow ups: a 2 foot piece of 2" pvc pipe with a 45 degree angle on end with hardware cloth got glued to the feeding end. suspend it from the middle of the top screen so the top sticks out allowing you to add food without having to open the tub.



Sincerely,

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Any way you could get a picture of this for us? I'm a visual learner...

I added this thread to my favorites btw, in case I ever need to breed my own feeders.

yep thats all right on Im going the hog feed way just don't have a feed store in my area that I know of,never used wheels either.Just pulled all my males from my groups because i have too many ASF's(300 or 400),so Ill just grow & feed off till I run low.no longer selling any because people don't want them in my area(want them too cheap)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Smith285

Any way you could get a picture of this for us? I'm a visual learner...

I added this thread to my favorites btw, in case I ever need to breed my own feeders.

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Only down side about them is about once every month or two I have to re-glue the hardware cloth... No big deal though. It only take a minute to do.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...a/DSC01348.jpg

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...a/DSC01349.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by nixer

i did the same when i had my asfs.
i still use that feed for mice its $8.49 from tsc here.

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Which food is it the hog feed? Is it available at all tractor supply stores?

Great post and honest post, I still use wheels for my mice and asf because a: i have a small number of animals and b: I use plastic wheels that do not squeak because i use some bike oil to make them go smooth (neither my mice, nor the asf chew on them)
But I have always used a feeding regime like you, even on my pet rats, who are fed every 3-5 days, because they hide most of the food anyways and eat it later. I used to throw away huge amounts of expensive rodent diet on every cleaning day, hidden under the bedding. And since my two rats are touching their second birthday and never had any health issues and have a good shape I guess I am doing good.

MIKE!!! WAY TO GO!!!!!!!!
I remember PMing you about this; I'm glad you finally decided to share!!!
Any reason you dont keep any more females per male????
Cheers bud!!!!! Great thread; make a sticky!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bluebead

Any reason you dont keep any more females per male????

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Because my best production has come from 1.2 groups. I used to swear by 1.3 groups until I started tracking data on spreadsheets.

Oooooh spreadsheets..... now that is something I am glad you did and figured out so that I didnt have to......:P

I guess I wont be feeding most of the baby males now; but it makes sense that smaller groups would produce more; I notice my 1.5 groups dont have a great survival rate per litter when there are more than a litter or two already on the ground so to speak. It seems to average a half dozen per litter but early litters are always around 15..... conclusion = Mike is the man!
Anyhow Mike, thanks again!!!!!

I also have regular rats and mice. Would the hog feed be ok for them too? I would rather have everybody on the same food. Also what size hardware cloth did you use on the hoppers? Thanks.

Great post mike!
I'd switch to hogfeed but I'm in love with my hoppers. :P I'm tempted to get a bag and see which lasts longer though, hog feed straight onto substrate or mazuri in a hopper. I know it last longer for you but differences in feeding methods/amounts could make a diff with me, I might be to lazy to pay attention to how much they're using, plus I'm feeding mice not ASF :rolleyes:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juddb

I loved the wheels when i first got them, but now i totally agree with you they are a pain in the butt! But i knew something would happen if i removed them, so every 3 days or so i take them down, scrub them and oil them (olive oil). Its only two so its not much trouble.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

I found mineral oil works better than olive oil, like, where olive oil works for a day or two, mineral oil works for weeks, unless they really wear it out. :P

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I have wheels, I can honestly say that adding wheels cut the amount of food my rodents waste in half. And I highly suggest Vaseline aka petroleum jelly for greasing them up. It lasts for months!!!! I think the main reason it works so well is they don't eat it off.
I was using veg. oil for a while and everytime I'd apply it they were right there licking at it. Looked dangerous for tongues and meant the oil was gone in a few days. Vaseline doesn't taste good and it didn't take them long to figure out it wasn't edible, none of my mice got sick.
If I had a larger colony I'd get rid of the wheels because they're a pain to clean but as it is I can stand to hold 7 wheels under a extremely hot stream of water for a few mins each. The water turns the wheels so they practically clean themselves, only the occasionally extra stubborn poo needs extra soaking. And as long as I keep the spokes themselves out of the water the Vaseline doesn't need to be reapplied.

Don't mean to jack the thread. :oops:
So another round of applause for Mike! :banana::banana: yeah! for the great how too on cheap colony keeping. :D

How do you do your water bottles in the 10 gallons Mike?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kristy1277

I also have regular rats and mice. Would the hog feed be ok for them too? I would rather have everybody on the same food. Also what size hardware cloth did you use on the hoppers? Thanks.

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I have no idea how well this food would work for mice or rats... I only breed ASF's... And I know it is perfect for them. Connie is the expert when it comes to feed with normal rats and mice.

For the hardware cloth, it isn't the 1/2 inch, it is the size under that. can't remember what it is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kevin_Hornby

How do you do your water bottles in the 10 gallons Mike?

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Half have glass bottles, half have plastic egg shaped bottles. I prefer the egg shaped bottles because they hold more water then the glass bottles, but unfortunately they don't last forever like the glass bottles do. Will probably go back to all glass.

I made the switch!
It was perfect timing that you posted this because I needed rat food!
I didn't get the Country cres, but I did get 15% protein.
What about Medicated vs. Not? I got Non-medicated, knowing that it would transfer into my snakes. Does anyone have insight on this?
It'll be interesting to see how they do now that they've switched.
Thanks again for posting this!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

I have no idea how well this food would work for mice or rats... I only breed ASF's... And I know it is perfect for them. Connie is the expert when it comes to feed with normal rats and mice.

For the hardware cloth, it isn't the 1/2 inch, it is the size under that. can't remember what it is.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Corvid

I made the switch!
It was perfect timing that you posted this because I needed rat food!
I didn't get the Country cres, but I did get 15% protein.
What about Medicated vs. Not? I got Non-medicated, knowing that it would transfer into my snakes. Does anyone have insight on this?
It'll be interesting to see how they do now that they've switched.
Thanks again for posting this!!

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I was feeding a custom mauzuri-copy feed in pellet form when I could get it, but my supplier is about 900miles away. When I ran out of that I switched over to feeding pig pellets to my mice and ASFs (several generations of mice) with no problems.
I switched to horse crunch b/c I wanted less wastage but the first thing you hear after feeding is the "clunk" of the chunk of food hitting the side of the bin as it is ejected from the food dish. I do notice a fair bit of wastage when I clean the bins.

Mike I beleive if it is sold as "standard hardware cloth" it is 1/4" mesh. It is available in 3/8" and 1/2" though so throw a tape measure on it and check for us:D

Corvid dont buy the medicated feed!!! It is intended as a swine specific medication to rid them of internal parasites; there is no telling what effects it will have on your feeders, let alone what it could do to your snakes.
Generally the larger/more complex organisms have a greater tolerance to chemical compounds in their diet. Since pigs are fairly close to humans and snakes are comparatively simple organisms, IMO medicated swine feed should be avoided as a diet for your feeder animals.

I figured as much as far as medicated, which is why I bough the non. Thank you Bluebead.
I wanted to bring in up in the forum, so people didn't just grab the feed they saw first... It doesn't say it in large font or anything, so people want to watch that!!!

What about lithium grease as lubricant? Its considered household grease but I dont know the toxicity of it. The good thing about them is that door hinges or garage door chains, when greased last for years.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kristy1277

I also have regular rats and mice. Would the hog feed be ok for them too? I would rather have everybody on the same food. Also what size hardware cloth did you use on the hoppers? Thanks.

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Generic hog feed is often too low in fat content for breeding rats. If you must, look at the product labels from a rat feed like Mazuri 6F or 9F, take it into a feed store, and browse through the brands until you find one that matches up closely in regards to ingredients listed, fat, protein, fiber and minerals. Rats are unable to digest most plant products properly, so look out for roughage and alfalfa, since these are often in a form that is mostly useless to rats.

I hear mice do well on standard hog diets and higher protein (20%), but I do not raise mice, only rats.

Hog starter is higher protien, it just comes in a crumble instead of kibble.

Most hog feed I have seen at TSC is right around 20%. Not horrible, but not recommended for males and non-nursing females that need lower protein. Too much protein causes an allergic reaction (scabs, itching) and can lead to kidney and liver disease.

Just incase anyone needs to know, in my area the distributors dont have "country acres hog feed" but instead they do have "country acres all stock 16" which they recomend to people in our area for feeding swine. its also 16% protein.

...and to anyone in md, i found it at "Quality Lab Products, Inc" in Elkridge, md for $11 per 50lb bag.

Thanks Mike. This post is a real keeper. I knew there must be a better way. I ditched the wheels and hoppers a long time ago, and now plan to follow your methods.

Anyone serious about keeping snakes knows that all the work is in the rodents. You have just made my day in a really big way!!!

Hey Mike, i noticed that you use pine bedding for your ASFs. Do you find that it adversely affects them in anyway?

It is my understanding that pine and cedar are toxic to regular rats and mice (the same reasons you dont want to use them for snakes).

Or has this all been disproved? i see a lot of people keeping rodents on pine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

Hey Mike, i noticed that you use pine bedding for your ASFs. Do you find that it adversely affects them in anyway?

It is my understanding that pine and cedar are toxic to regular rats and mice (the same reasons you dont want to use them for snakes).

Or has this all been disproved? i see a lot of people keeping rodents on pine.

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It is kiln dried pine. That makes it OK to use. :gj:

so if kiln dried pine is ok for the feeders is it ok for the snake too? just curious...sorry a little off topic

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobbi

so if kiln dried pine is ok for the feeders is it ok for the snake too? just curious...sorry a little off topic

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No, it still is in no way safe for the snakes. Snakes have a much more delicate respiratory system then rodents.

thats what i though, i was just curious :)

I argue against pine and soft woods being 100% safe to use. While kiln drying is effective in removing most of the tars, phenols and oils, the quality varies from manufacturer to manufacturer, so choose a good brand.

I know most people get a head ache when I drop in pine convo's, but I think it's important to let people know that there is still residue left, and it varies from one brand to the next.

I recommend shopping for a bedding that doesn't have strong odor, isn't very dusty, and is light and fluffy. Apply that to both pine or aspen shavings. :gj:

It can be argued that no degree of kiln drying is effective in removing ALL of the harmful chemicals, but a good quality pine is better than a bag of raw wet thick shavings, in my opinion.

where is the directions for convincing a wife that breeding rodents is better for her pocket book!!

great write up Mike!

The easy way to do that is get a trio and set them up in a 10 gallon and dont' tell her put em in the closet or something for like a month. Then let her see them and say see you didn't even know they were here. Most people cave when they realize there is little to no smell attached to them.

Just tell her that Jody is going out of business soon, and you'll then have to pay $6.00 ea. for rats & $3.00 ea. for mice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

No, it still is in no way safe for the snakes. Snakes have a much more delicate respiratory system then rodents.

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ah thanks for the clarification. :)

Hey Mike I have a question for you. I was wondering how your country acres hog feed matches up to the country acres all stock 16 I got today. according to the local distributor they don't have country acres hog feed in my region and recomend this all stock to people feeding hogs, cattle and horse. Here is the info on the bag.

Protein. 16% min
Fat. 3%
Fiber. 13% max
Calcium. .9 - 1.4%
Phosphorus. .45% min
Salt. .3 - .8%
Potassium. .75% min
Copper. 16 - 19 ppm
Selenium. .3 min ppm
Zinc. 110ppm
Vitamin A. 2000. IU/LB

Quote:

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Originally Posted by evil mechanic

Hey Mike I have a question for you. I was wondering how your country acres hog feed matches up to the country acres all stock 16 I got today. according to the local distributor they don't have country acres hog feed in my region and recomend this all stock to people feeding hogs, cattle and horse. Here is the info on the bag.

Protein. 16% min
Fat. 3%
Fiber. 13% max
Calcium. .9 - 1.4%
Phosphorus. .45% min
Salt. .3 - .8%
Potassium. .75% min
Copper. 16 - 19 ppm
Selenium. .3 min ppm
Zinc. 110ppm
Vitamin A. 2000. IU/LB

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Country Acres Hog feed

Protein 16.00% min.
Lysine .65% min.
Crude fat 3.00% min.
Crude fiber 7.00% min.
Calcium .60% min.
Calcium 1.10% max
Phos .70% min
Salt .25% min.
Salt .75% max
Selenium .300PPM min.
Zinc 100.000PPM min.

this is yet again why mike is the supreme asf breeder! by the way mike mine finally crapped out after two 3 generations. i think there was just too much inbreed blood. they finally murdered each other. now im looking for some different blood lines. the mice i have been keeping smell horrid! lol

Does anyone know where to get Country Acres Hog Feed in the Chicago burbs? I tried Regole's feed and they are looking in to it but wont know till next Monday :(. Also tried Bob's in Wheaton and they haven't gotten back to me. I need to switch cause the bulk block, AKA: crap, is making my ASFs loose their hair.

i couldnt find the food either, im in SE Wis.
you will have to find a different hog feed that has similar ingrediants
I found a similar hog feed (to what i was using before) at TSC called producers pride

Most hog feeds I looked at have extreme overdoses of copper in them--hogs are highly resistant to copper, so it's added to their feed to improve their growth rates. The amount of copper in hog feed is high enough to just kill off sheep that get into it and eat it, for example.

While the rodents may be able to withstand these high copper levels, I am concerned for the health of any carnivore that eats those rodents. Were you able to find hog feeds that did not contain excessive copper supplements?