Space per rat?

I'm going to be experimenting with some different types of cages but I can't seem to find a minimum amount of space per rat. Pet sites (blegh) say 2 ft per rat, which seems close but slightly high for feeders. Lab recs say 450 sq cm, but I can't figure out how much space this is. I think it's slightly under 1 ft? My feeders and waterers will be outside of the cages, and I'd be keeping non breeders in these cages (I have separate maturity bins).
Edit: After some hard thinking it seems closer to 1/2 a foot for 450 cm?

"After some hard thinking it seems closer to 1/2 a foot for 450 cm?"

Yes, one sq foot is about 930 sq cm or exactly 144 sq inches. A 10g tank is 200 sq inches/1250cm2, so that lab recommendation puts 3 rats in a 10g. That's a bit snug, IMO. Somewhere in between the lab recommendation and the pet recommendation would be where I'd aim.

2 feet is honestly small even by pet standards. But you're not looking to keep a pet, by the sound of it.

You'll still want to have a decent size for your housing regardless. You would want at least 1.5 square feet to comfortably house 2 rats. This is for the stress reduction and cleanliness factor. Keep in mind that stressed rats will be prone to cannibalism of the offspring as well. It's not as common as mice or hamsters, but a stressed rattie mom with less than healthy offspring won't care.

Edit: I'm also thinking by floor print, not height. Something like 18x12" for example would be fine at 6" tall. I used to keep a few breeders in a multi-level 24x18x24 at one point though for when I needed some steady rat pups.

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

"After some hard thinking it seems closer to 1/2 a foot for 450 cm?"

Yes, one sq foot is about 930 sq cm or exactly 144 sq inches. A 10g tank is 200 sq inches/1250cm2, so that lab recommendation puts 3 rats in a 10g. That's a bit snug, IMO. Somewhere in between the lab recommendation and the pet recommendation would be where I'd aim.

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That does seem snug, I'll probably allow a minimum of 1 ft per rat and go from there.

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

2 feet is honestly small even by pet standards. But you're not looking to keep a pet, by the sound of it.

You'll still want to have a decent size for your housing regardless. You would want at least 1.5 square feet to comfortably house 2 rats. This is for the stress reduction and cleanliness factor. Keep in mind that stressed rats will be prone to cannibalism of the offspring as well. It's not as common as mice or hamsters, but a stressed rattie mom with less than healthy offspring won't care.

Edit: I'm also thinking by floor print, not height. Something like 18x12" for example would be fine at 6" tall. I used to keep a few breeders in a multi-level 24x18x24 at one point though for when I needed some steady rat pups.

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These would be kind of pets. They're for a few purposes, feeders, show and pet breeding. I separate my mum's into maternity bins. I was thinking of doing a 24 x 24 cage but I wanted to get four rats to a cage. I might have to to go a bit larger. I still haven't figured out what height I want yet. Definitely 7 inch at least but maybe taller.

"These would be kind of pets."

When I raised rats for my own feeders, I had a hard time not thinking of them as pets to some degree. If I ever got a small caged mammal for a pet, it would be a rat (well, probably two) -- they're lovely critters. I'm somewhat glad I just buy frozen rats now (I still raise mice, but they're somehow easier to objectify).

I wouldn't say a person shouldn't feed rats of course, but raising them can bring out complicated feelings and forced me, anyway, to be more clear about my relationship with animals. Which is always a good thing to force.

Not exactly relevant to your questions, just sympathetic rambling...:)

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

"These would be kind of pets."

When I raised rats for my own feeders, I had a hard time not thinking of them as pets to some degree. If I ever got a small caged mammal for a pet, it would be a rat (well, probably two) -- they're lovely critters. I'm somewhat glad I just buy frozen rats now (I still raise mice, but they're somehow easier to objectify).

I wouldn't say a person shouldn't feed rats of course, but raising them can bring out complicated feelings and forced me, anyway, to be more clear about my relationship with animals. Which is always a good thing to force.

Not exactly relevant to your questions, just sympathetic rambling...:)

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Same here. I actually had some pet rats before I ever got into snakes, & it took me a long time to consider any rats as feeders. They're excellent pets- smart & even affectionate- whereas the best I can say about mice is that they have attractive coats & colors (mine are "fancies"). Mice don't seem to relate much to people even when treated as pets- plus they're prone to chewing up their pinkies in a very gruesome manner when they decide they're done being parents. Rats are mostly good parents.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Malum Argenteum

"These would be kind of pets."

When I raised rats for my own feeders, I had a hard time not thinking of them as pets to some degree. If I ever got a small caged mammal for a pet, it would be a rat (well, probably two) -- they're lovely critters. I'm somewhat glad I just buy frozen rats now (I still raise mice, but they're somehow easier to objectify).

I wouldn't say a person shouldn't feed rats of course, but raising them can bring out complicated feelings and forced me, anyway, to be more clear about my relationship with animals. Which is always a good thing to force.

Not exactly relevant to your questions, just sympathetic rambling...:)

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I'm honestly not sure why I was replying with future tense, I currently have rats. Close to 30 now I think lol I didn't expect to love them so much, and the first time I fed one off I almost cried actually. They're definitely pets, just not as much as my dogs.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

These would be kind of pets. They're for a few purposes, feeders, show and pet breeding. I separate my mum's into maternity bins. I was thinking of doing a 24 x 24 cage but I wanted to get four rats to a cage. I might have to to go a bit larger. I still haven't figured out what height I want yet. Definitely 7 inch at least but maybe taller.

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More height (8"+) is desirable for rats, because the adults have a long reach when they stand up, AND because when they get bored, they'll be chewing on the top if they can easily reach it. Not so much if it's awkwardly higher over their heads. ;) It sounds as if you're planning to build these cages? Keep in mind that they need to easily reach the over-head food hopper, IF you're incorporating that design. (& I recommend it- it's the only way to keep their food clean & with less waste.)

Yes, I'll be building them. They'll be wire with metal pans and 6" bedding guards. I'm just doing one so far to see how I like it compared to my bins. Ideally they'll be stacked with front opening doors, slide out pans, an auto watering system, and feeders that fill from the outside. I'll likely melt holes in some dollar tree sandwich containers and use those as a sort of side hopper.

How much room they need very much depends on the quality of airflow and how often you want to change their litter out, and to some extent how large overall the enclosure is. I like using the really large mason tubs for rats, and 2 adult females per plus their litter seems to work pretty well for me. Adult males are being rotated through females, but if you have a smaller breeding operation, you will need a tub just for the couple of males when not with females breeding. Growout tubs isn't something you should need much of unless you are feeding a very large snake, as "weaned" rats are really not quite weaned and small is about the size they should be when leaving the moms and needing separated by sex at 6 weeks. If you are trying to feed something large like an adult boa, or retic or something like that, you could get away with 5-6 juvenile rats per tub so long as they don't have any young.

If you use smaller tubs like labs use, you will need a tub per female because of the room the babies take, and can probably only fit 2-3 juveniles per tub and they will need cleaned very often.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

More height (8"+) is desirable for rats, because the adults have a long reach when they stand up, AND because when they get bored, they'll be chewing on the top if they can easily reach it. Not so much if it's awkwardly higher over their heads. ;) It sounds as if you're planning to build these cages? Keep in mind that they need to easily reach the over-head food hopper, IF you're incorporating that design. (& I recommend it- it's the only way to keep their food clean & with less waste.)

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Any suggestions on height? I was thinking 14 inch, would that be too short? All of my bins are pretty tall so I haven't thought about height much. I used bowls for maybe the first day and they hid it all so everyone has hoppers now lol

14" for height would work fine, IMO.

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Originally Posted by BallPythonWannaBe

Yes, I'll be building them. They'll be wire with metal pans and 6" bedding guards. I'm just doing one so far to see how I like it compared to my bins. Ideally they'll be stacked with front opening doors, slide out pans, an auto watering system, and feeders that fill from the outside. I'll likely melt holes in some dollar tree sandwich containers and use those as a sort of side hopper.

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I'm pretty sure they'll chew right thru your sandwich container "food hoppers"-such plastic is not even a challenge! ;) Bear in mind that rats can chew thru bricks, & like (need) to file their teeth. (I wouldn't waste the sandwich containers, lol.)

Food hoppers for rats must be sturdy metal bars- look at professionally-made lab cages . What MIGHT work: the welded-metal-bar suet-holders sold for bird-feeding?
Something along this line: https://mobileimages.lowes.com/produ....jpg?size=pdhi

Definitely would not take long with plastic.... or wood.
For the suet holders...A design based around it isn't a bad idea. But in my experience, the holders they sell they tend to be kinda cheap and never quite close right. But it could just be the brands I'm familiar with? Also you need to be careful about how wide the bars are. Some of them aren't very close and I've seen a young guinea pig get stuck in one once when we tried using it to keep the hay a bit neater at a pet store I worked. Nothing serious though, we just had to help him squeeze his head back out after he calmed down

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Originally Posted by Armiyana

Definitely would not take long with plastic.... or wood.
For the suet holders...A design based around it isn't a bad idea. But in my experience, the holders they sell they tend to be kinda cheap and never quite close right. But it could just be the brands I'm familiar with? Also you need to be careful about how wide the bars are. Some of them aren't very close and I've seen a young guinea pig get stuck in one once when we tried using it to keep the hay a bit neater at a pet store I worked. Nothing serious though, we just had to help him squeeze his head back out after he calmed down

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I hesitated to suggest the suet holders, because as you said, most are cheaply made -or coated in plastic which will get eaten by rats, & I'd also worry about them cutting their mouths on sharp wire edges that stick out. As far as rats opening one, that's an easy fix though- the squirrels here used to open mine* until I used a wire twist to "lock" them. A paper clip, key ring, spring clip- many things could be used to keep one shut. (*I'm not using them for rats- I feed the birds in winter & the squirrels are thieves. ;) )

This is the sort of reason I like to stroll thru home improvement stores, looking for ideas to use things creatively.

Yeah I got into the habit of using carabiner clips. Sometimes the ones you twist but usually just the spring loaded ones with my ratties. They were very good at figuring out how to open the cage doors. Lol.