Cinnamon/Black Pastel

Theres been some discussion about Cinnamon and Black Pastel being the same snake.. Im wondering what everyone thinks. I see distinct differences in the two that make me feel not totally the same. And even though they can produce the same super form that doesnt mean they are the same.
So heres some pics to show what I mean..
Heres my Cinni
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5064.jpg
Cinni Head shot
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5071.jpg

Black Pastel
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...1/100_5011.jpg
Head shot
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5072.jpg

And Togehter
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5066.jpg
http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c3...s/100_5073.jpg

Theres noticable color differences. The cinnis head is definately more redish brown and smoother looking than the black. The black pastel also has some more speckling on it than the Cinni.

Well I looked at them side by side when we chose our Cinnamon hatchling last year at BHB and they didn't look the same to me. :)

I've looked at them side by side at several shows, and while I see variation from animal to animal, I don't see much difference between the Black Pastel and the Cinny.

Seeing that i own both and can see the differences even though im color blind I have to say different.

These mutations are on the same allele, and are very similar, but they are not the same mutation, as they come from different original animals.

This is kind of like comparing butters and lessers. Different mutation but similar supers and can be crossed to produce the same(generalized) supers.

I beleive both have a place in a breeders collection, especially with the problems associated with snout deformities in cinxcin or BpastelxBpastel supers.

Wicked snakes BTW!!!
Albie

i think they are different because of the supers. the supers look different.

If we're talking the selectively bred blacks and cinnamons, yes I certainly see a difference between them. There's no confusing one of Albey's cinnamons with one of say Gulf Coast's black pastels.

The stuff that people are just tossing together with no thought and muddying the characteristics, those I can see why people would confuse them.

Really good point Shadera.

I say they are different especially when you compare very good examples of both. :)

I voted same, but for a different reason. I really don't think there are only two specific genes, one for Black Pastels and one for Cinnamons. I've seen some Cinnies that look like Black Pastels and some Black Pastels that look like cinnies. There are a LOT of different lines out there and I think a lot of the people that imported them decided to name them one or the other. For example, look at all of the different pastels out there. There used to be many lines but with so many different combos and inter-breeding, most pastels are just referred to now as the generic "pastel". I've bred a number of Cinny clutches from my BHB line with different females, and some come out looking very much like a Black Pastel with high contrast colors whereas others come out looking like a typical Cinnamon with a nice cinny color, faded head and blushing.

Overall I would give the same recommendation that I would when buying a pastel or any snake: buy the snake, not the name.

Here's one cinny that I hatched last year that resembles the above Black Pastel more than the Cinny:

http://superiorserpents.com/PubPics/8ball2.jpg

Well wouldn't the easy way to prove it be to breed a cinnamon to a black pastel and see if you get any supers? If you get a super it would mean they are the same right? If they are different then they would make something new..