Spider x mojave? - and other ? about squares...

Is there a mix of spider and mojave? Ive seen like one post on here about it but ive never seen any pictures - anywhere.

Also im still confused on how to do some punnet squares... :(
Say you have a pastel x normal.

Pastel is like P p and normal is n n (im not sure if the visual trait is capital or not but thats beside the point) Would a super pastel then be P P??? Or why do I hear stuff like a bumblebee still carries a normal gene?? I cant understandddddddddd. it would have S and P... or is it supposed to be a 4x2 square??? like P p S s for the bee, and n n for a normal...

http://www.vmsherp.com/ImagePages/Ba...ave-Spider.htm

All the way at the bottom of this it discusses double co-dom traits. It's a little confusing the way the do it though.

http://www.arbreptiles.com/genetics101.shtml

It may help to think of it as breeding a Normal Double Het Super Pastel/Super Spider to a Normal for Punnet Square purposes. You would need a 4x4 square.

Forget the caps for gene and the lower case for wild/normal gene.

Just use the letter directly.

P for pastel and N for normal

Normal genome : nn
Pastel genome should be : Pn
Spider genome : Sn
Mojave genome : Mn
Cinnamon/Black pastel genome : Cn
Albino genome : AA

When you add another gene, you just double the normal gene
bumblebee : PnSn
Super Pastel : PP
Killerbee : PPSn
het Albino Bumblebee : AnPnSn
Albino Bumblebee : AAPnSn

Let's say you breed a Bumblebee to an Albino
Like I previously said, the bumblebee is PnSn and the Albino is AA
You can't do PnSn x AA cause the gene are not on the same "loci" they are different gene.
So you need to add "nn" for the gene the snake have the other don't have.

So the genome for the become
bumblebee : PnSnnn
Albino : nnnnAA

As you can see, I used the first 2 letters for the Pastel gene, the second 2 letter for the spider gene and the third for the Albino

So now you can do your punnet square, I like to use that online website
http://www.changbioscience.com/genetics/punnett.html

So just past these 2, and you will have this

Code:

---

Punnett Square

PnSnnn x nnnnAA

        PSn        PSn        Pnn        Pnn        nSn        nSn        nnn        nnn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn


Genotype Frequencies:
PnSnAn:    16 ( 25% )
PnnnAn:    16 ( 25% )
nnSnAn:    16 ( 25% )
nnnnAn:    16 ( 25% )

---

So when you read the result, you just remove the "nn" from it so the result is this
PnSnAn : Bumblebee het albino
PnAn : Pastel het albino
SnAn : Spider het albino
An : het albino

You could also have use the Caps for the gene but it can more confusing than anything in my opinion to read.
In that case the genome of both should be spelled like this :
Bumblebee : PpSsaa
Albino : ppssAA

(in my opinion it's already hard to read)

you get these result :

Code:

---

PpSsaa x ppssAA

        PSa        PSa        Psa        Psa        pSa        pSa        psa        psa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa


Genotype Frequencies:
PpSsAa:    16 ( 25% )
PpssAa:    16 ( 25% )
ppSsAa:    16 ( 25% )
ppssAa:    16 ( 25% )

---

in that case, you need to remove the double lower case to see what are the result.

PpSsAa : Bumblebee het Albino
PpssAa : Pastel het Albino
ppSsAa : Spider het albino
ppssAa : het Albino

You be the judge, but IMO it's harder that way.

Hope I have helped you understand better.

You can send me PM if you need help. I am not an expert at all, but I think I understand a part of it and I am always glad to help.

The only exception to all this, are the gene that are on the same "allele" or at least the one we think of. Most common are the Mojave and Lesser.

Like I previously said
Mojave : Mn
Lesser : Ln

But if you cross them you will do Mn x Ln cause they are on the same loci/allele.
You can't do Mnnn x nnLn , cause it wouldn't be right.

To explain it let's do it for the Super form
Super Mojave : MM
BEL super lesser : LL
If you breed them you will do MM x LL

Code:

---

Punnett Square

MM x LL

        M        M
L        LM        LM
L        LM        LM


Genotype Frequencies:
LM:    4 ( 100% )

---

You see, all the result are LM that mean they are all Blue Eyed Lucy from Mojave Lesser, they have both gene.

Now let's breed that super to a normal

Code:

---

LM x nn

        L        M
n        Ln        Mn
n        Ln        Mn


Genotype Frequencies:
Ln:    2 ( 50% )
Mn:    2 ( 50% )

---

You see, you will have Lesser and Mojave but no Blue Eyed Lucy. Just like it is in real life. Actually, it's because people have actually done it and got these results that we know this theory is right.

Good luck :)

Here is a Pastel x Normal matrix:


Spider x Mojo:

Code:

---

Punnett Square

PnSnnn x nnnnAA

        PSn        PSn        Pnn        Pnn        nSn        nSn        nnn        nnn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn
nnA        PnSnAn        PnSnAn        PnnnAn        PnnnAn        nnSnAn        nnSnAn        nnnnAn        nnnnAn


Genotype Frequencies:
PnSnAn:    16 ( 25% )
PnnnAn:    16 ( 25% )
nnSnAn:    16 ( 25% )
nnnnAn:    16 ( 25% )

---

Code:

---

PpSsaa x ppssAA

        PSa        PSa        Psa        Psa        pSa        pSa        psa        psa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa
psA        PpSsAa        PpSsAa        PpssAa        PpssAa        ppSsAa        ppSsAa        ppssAa        ppssAa


Genotype Frequencies:
PpSsAa:    16 ( 25% )
PpssAa:    16 ( 25% )
ppSsAa:    16 ( 25% )
ppssAa:    16 ( 25% )

---

[/QUOTE]

For the first box, couldnt you only put PSn Pnn nSn nnn in the top row. and then just have nnA in the side row 4 times? Wouldnt that still come out with 25% each.

The way you had it with the huge squares i didnt really get confused by the lowercase s and p, but i sort of did when i saw all of the nnnnAn 's at first.

What would bumblebee x pastel be.

The way ive been doing it would be lile

-- P - S
P|PP|PS
n|Pn|Sn

i think thats the actual odds too?

is that the same how it would work for mojave x pastel.
25% PM
25% Pn
25% Mn
25% nn

I didnt know mojave x lesser made a bel. I didnt know you could mix them but I knew they both made BEL's... Whats a mojave lesser bel look like? because i know super mojave and super lessers are somewhat different.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ChadOwens

Here is a Pastel x Normal matrix:


Spider x Mojo:

---

Yeah, thats how ive done all my squares and i cant see why people always make em so long and extensive like above.(or is it below?)
I can handle the small squares like that. I wasnt sure if mojave was like M n or something else.

Forgot to add, is there a special name for spider mojos?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

The way you had it with the huge squares i didnt really get confused by the lowercase s and p, but i sort of did when i saw all of the nnnnAn 's at first.

---

Use what suits you :). In my case I get more confused by the lower case stuff than using the "nn".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

For the first box, couldnt you only put PSn Pnn nSn nnn in the top row. and then just have nnA in the side row 4 times? Wouldnt that still come out with 25% each.

---

Well, yes and no. In that case the results would have work.

The table you see what done using an automated punnet square. (if you looked at the link I put there). When you build a punnet square, you have to do it the right way otherwise it can get confused and the results won't always be the same. In that case it would have work, but there is other time it won't.

To do the first line, you need to combine each possibility. The way to do it, is to take the first letter and combine it with the first of the second gene, and the third. Than take the second letter of the first gene and use the first of the second and third gene. And so on and so on. As you can see, it can get confusing at some points.

Because the Albino is nn nn AA. All the possible combination are all "n n A". But if you were using a spider albino, it would have been different.

At some point, you have to stop trying to get it simpler otherwise you just complicate it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

-- P - S
P|PP|PS
n|Pn|Sn

---

No it's wrong. You see, a Bumblebee to a Pastel will result in Killerbee, Bumblebee, SuperPastel, Pastel, Spider and Normal.
That's why you can't use only 1 letter to represent a gene, but both.

Code:

---

PnSn x Pnnn

        PS        Pn        nS        nn
Pn        PPSn        PPnn        PnSn        Pnnn
Pn        PPSn        PPnn        PnSn        Pnnn
nn        PnSn        Pnnn        nnSn        nnnn
nn        PnSn        Pnnn        nnSn        nnnn


Genotype Frequencies:
PPSn:    2 ( 12.5% ) Killerbee (Super Pastel Spider)
PPnn:    2 ( 12.5% ) Super Pastel
PnSn:    4 ( 25% ) Bumblebee (Pastel Spider)
Pnnn:    4 ( 25% ) Pastel
nnSn:    2 ( 12.5% ) Spider
nnnn:    2 ( 12.5% ) Normal

---

or in your Caps Code

Code:

---

PpSs x Ppss

PS        Ps        pS        ps
Ps        PPSs        PPss        PpSs        Ppss
Ps        PPSs        PPss        PpSs        Ppss
ps        PpSs        Ppss        ppSs        ppss
ps        PpSs        Ppss        ppSs        ppss


Genotype Frequencies:
PPSs:    2 ( 12.5% )
PPss:    2 ( 12.5% )
PpSs:    4 ( 25% )
Ppss:    4 ( 25% )
ppSs:    2 ( 12.5% )
ppss:    2 ( 12.5% )

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

I didnt know mojave x lesser made a bel. I didnt know you could mix them but I knew they both made BEL's... Whats a mojave lesser bel look like? because i know super mojave and super lessers are somewhat different.

---

The Mojave Lesser, is a bit like the Super Stripe and YB gene etc... May be you are more aware of this ???
The genetics out there is a bit more complicated. But actually, it's that there is different gene that reside on the same location on the genome (dna if you want). And since you can only have 2 chromosome at the same place, it's impossible to have a super mojave and super lesser together. It's either one or the other. That's why you will have BEL from crossing both.

The BEL from Mojave x Lesser is a clean white one. Couldn't say if it's cleaner or not than a Lesser x Lesser, but it's cleaner than a Super Mojave from what I know.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by I<3Dreamsicles

Yeah, thats how ive done all my squares and i cant see why people always make em so long and extensive like above.(or is it below?)
I can handle the small squares like that. I wasnt sure if mojave was like M n or something else.

---

Cause these works when you are working with simple ones and with co-dominant gene. But once you work with combos, it's different.

It's also the "Classic" way of doing it. The scientific method that biologist and scientific use.