Husbandry vent

I just meant like how if something is directly in the sun the temp will be higher than ambient. Not that BPs are out in the sun just pointing out how the weather data can be skewed.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

This is being made waaay to complex than it really is.

Termite mounds vary between 84 and 90 degrees. The "design" of these has been relentlessly studied...especially in regards to how it regulates temperature...even when temps skyrocket or plummet outside of the structure. Studies on regius have shown that they seek burrows within this temperature range during the day....and no I'm not going to provide the study or a link to it. I think people would be better off if they took the time to study the aspect of the'r animal's natural history

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On that note, as someone who genuinely enjoys researching this sort of thing, I have another question! Most caresheets and keepers recommend a RH of 50-70%, but African termite mounds are regulated to maintain a much higher RH, between 80-100%. Termites can't survive long with anything less than this. So, as a new ball python keeper, I'm wondering if there's a reason for this disparity? Do most of you offer a humid hide at all times?

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Originally Posted by bondo

I still feel 80 ambient and a day/night cycle are not the healthiest way to keep balls. I however said they will do fine also. It has been proven they do fine both ways. I do not recommend new people keeping an ambient in the high 60s. However when I was running that cold I had balls on the cold side. The girls did great in those temps I had very few slugs. My new house is insulated very well and I don't get that cold anymore and my slug numbers went up. The snakes know what they need better then any of us.

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There are two windows in my reptile room, one facing south and one facing west. I keep the blinds slightly cracked and this gives the whole room rather soft lighting during the day. I provide this photoperiod as I feel it's healthier for animals to have a natural light cycle. They can then decide how to react - e.g., being more active for diurnals or retreating for nocturnals. I don't use central heating or air, just a couple window air conditioners on either side the house and a radiator heater in the reptile room for winter. During the winter I set my royal hot spots at 88-90 and the ambient in the room usually stays between 72-78(night-day). The ambient in the room for the rest of the year ranges from 77-84(night-day) and I turn off hot spots completely during the hottest months in summer. During these hot months animals don't get a typical range in their enclosures to thermoregulate but the room itself ranges from 77-84 during a 24 hour cycle and they seem to do fine.

That's how I keep my animals and while I don't produce a large number of regius eggs, without being home to see my records I'd guess around 50 in the last 5 years, every female who has ovulated has laid perfect clutches with 100% hatch rate. I'm thinking there's a wide range of parameters in which these animals will adjust and even thrive. So long as you're within these accepted(by the animal) parameters, keeping things more or less constant(daily, weekly, monthly, yearly) seems to be the main key to success. I'm not a betting man but if I were I'd wager your increase in slugs had more to do with the simple fact that there was a major change in husbandry. It's not really proof that the way you were keeping your animals previously was superior, only that your animals were adjusted to those settings and you threw their systems for a loop in the changing. Sometimes it can take years for them to readjust, sometimes they never do and you have nice pets for the duration of their lifespan(s).

Thank you to the folks who see my side. I could really care less if you keep your snake at 68 degrees. That's your business. Just do not tell me my snake is suffering because I keep an ambient temp of 82.. Which is normal in this hobby. And its only 92 where the heat tape is which is only under that specific hide. My snake spends 85% of his time there. The far side is 82 and he is rarely there. Am I going to make it cooler for him since he spends more time on the warm side? I would call that suffering to be honest because he is content as is. We ruled out he's probably not dehydrated since his eyes show no signs, just creases in the skin from being balled up for hours in a tight hide. Problem solved. I soaked him once because he had a tiny piece of eye cap stuck and out of all the snakes I had he seemed to "like?" the short soak and always takes big drinks and doesn't thrash about so I figured I would ask if anyone soaks their snakes or is it bad for them. I'm open to other methods of keeping ball pythons but do not tell me my snake is suffering because I do not do it your way which is not even the norm.

Oh and PS I'm not a "16 year old kid with my first ball python" , this is actually my first snake kept in a enclosure because I can no longer have a rack and the space for all the snakes I had over the last decade. I'm not a expert but I have SOME experience [emoji6] let's all get along now [emoji16]

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Originally Posted by bondo

So data should not be based on averages? what should it be based on? This is the average for Bangui.

Bangui, Central African Republic

The warm season lasts from January 23 to March 18 with an average daily high temperature above 93°F. The hottest day of the year is February 9, with an average high of 94°F and low of 69°F.

The cold season lasts from June 20 to August 27 with an average daily high temperature below 87°F. The coldest day of the year is January 3, with an average low of 65°F and high of 91°F.

The hottest day average low is 69 and the coldest is 65. That would put the average low for the entire year at 67. Yaoundé, Cameroon average low for the year is 68. The average low for the year in Khartoum, Sudan is 73.5. The average low for the entire year in Tambacounda, Senegal is 72.5. I know what you are going to say. Well those are the low averages you need to average them with the highs. That would be true if they only came out during dusk or dawn only. If they go out at night though the lows are what to look at. It gets in the 90s and 100s during the days in some of these places but they stay put under the ground in these temps for the most part.

I do understand humidity. Your argument though is based on how humidity works in general. We are talking about a tank. When the humidity in the air is less then what you are trying to maintain it isn't so cut and dry. How much water surface is in the tank? How much misting is going on? Is the top covered fully, partially, or nothing at all. You can't debate something without all the info.

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You are still talking about the average of the lowest temperatures an the highest temperatures. This is not realistic, only looking at the maximums. You are saying the extremes are what you should be looking at not the averages of the whole day. Lets look at this, for the warm season if we take the average of the daily maximum temperatures recorded, 94ºF and the average of the lowest temperatures recorded 69ºF 94+69=163 /2 = 81.5. This is not a true daily temp average but is likely close. Better than saying the average of the coldest temps recorded is correct.

Are you also suggesting a 91ºF ambient is acceptable as well?

You need to look at the daily temperature average not the average of the daily extremes.


Humidity is hardly cut and dried. You stated it is harder to keep humidity if the ambient are temp is higher. This is not correct it is easier, you need less RH because the saturation value is different. This does not ever change in a tank, house or outside. It is a law of physics. The cooler the enclosure the harder the humidity issues are.

If you did keep a royal at 64ºF you could never get enough humidity as 100%RH fully saturated air is less than the amount of water in the air that has demonstrated over and over to produce good sheds. 60%RH only works at one temperature 80ºF as the ambient changes so does the needed RH. The cooler it is the more you need the closer you get to 100% the harder it is to hold. Warmer air temps need lower % of the saturation point and it is easier to maintain.

Warmth evaporates more water. Cool temperatures evaporates less. Basic physics, you have suggested this is not true.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You are still talking about the average of the lowest temperatures an the highest temperatures. This is not realistic, only looking at the maximums. You are saying the extremes are what you should be looking at not the averages of the whole day. Lets look at this, for the warm season if we take the average of the daily maximum temperatures recorded, 94ºF and the average of the lowest temperatures recorded 69ºF 94+69=163 /2 = 81.5. This is not a true daily temp average but is likely close. Better than saying the average of the coldest temps recorded is correct.

Are you also suggesting a 91ºF ambient is acceptable as well?

You need to look at the daily temperature average not the average of the daily extremes.


Humidity is hardly cut and dried. You stated it is harder to keep humidity if the ambient are temp is higher. This is not correct it is easier, you need less RH because the saturation value is different. This does not ever change in a tank, house or outside. It is a law of physics. The cooler the enclosure the harder the humidity issues are.

If you did keep a royal at 64ºF you could never get enough humidity as 100%RH fully saturated air is less than the amount of water in the air that has demonstrated over and over to produce good sheds. 60%RH only works at one temperature 80ºF as the ambient changes so does the needed RH. The cooler it is the more you need the closer you get to 100% the harder it is to hold. Warmer air temps need lower % of the saturation point and it is easier to maintain.

Warmth evaporates more water. Cool temperatures evaporates less. Basic physics, you have suggested this is not true.

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The explanations of calculating temperature averages are starting to give me nightmares about bell curves, standard deviations, and T-tests from my old stat. class! :omg:

I think there may be a miscommunication over the humidity argument, and you're arguing a similar point. It seems like some people are arguing physics (warm air evaporating water more quickly than cooler air) while OP is arguing that in glass tanks humidity is harder to maintain due to the lids, and higher temperatures allow the tank to dry out faster. So in glass tanks, lower heat = slower rate of tank drying out/slower rate of evaporation. It's not that warmer temps lower humidity, it's that they generate humidity too quickly to properly maintain it without constant misting.

So let's say there are two 10g tanks next to each other with screen lids. If the tanks had the same amount of damp substrate and type of heater (be it CHE, lamp, or RHP), but one was set to an ambient 72F and the other is set to an ambient 82F, which tank would have more consistent humidity within the desired parameters for BPs? Which tank would hold humidity longer? A tank too warm may have the right humidity level but it would evaporate completely within a day. A tank too cool would have damp substrate for a week but very little humidity in the air. What the optimal temperature range for the right humidity level for the longest period of time?

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

You are still talking about the average of the lowest temperatures an the highest temperatures. This is not realistic, only looking at the maximums. You are saying the extremes are what you should be looking at not the averages of the whole day. Lets look at this, for the warm season if we take the average of the daily maximum temperatures recorded, 94ºF and the average of the lowest temperatures recorded 69ºF 94+69=163 /2 = 81.5. This is not a true daily temp average but is likely close. Better than saying the average of the coldest temps recorded is correct.

Are you also suggesting a 91ºF ambient is acceptable as well?

You need to look at the daily temperature average not the average of the daily extremes.


Humidity is hardly cut and dried. You stated it is harder to keep humidity if the ambient are temp is higher. This is not correct it is easier, you need less RH because the saturation value is different. This does not ever change in a tank, house or outside. It is a law of physics. The cooler the enclosure the harder the humidity issues are.

If you did keep a royal at 64ºF you could never get enough humidity as 100%RH fully saturated air is less than the amount of water in the air that has demonstrated over and over to produce good sheds. 60%RH only works at one temperature 80ºF as the ambient changes so does the needed RH. The cooler it is the more you need the closer you get to 100% the harder it is to hold. Warmer air temps need lower % of the saturation point and it is easier to maintain.

Warmth evaporates more water. Cool temperatures evaporates less. Basic physics, you have suggested this is not true.

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I am using the average low temps. The reason being is because they are out during those periods. If they were out in the middle of the day I would use the average highs.

At no time did I say it is harder to keep humidity at higher temps. I am not going to go through all these pages to where it was said. If it came across that way I am sorry I did not mean for it to. What I said or was trying to say is the light would dry it out. Again you are using the basics on how humidity works in the atmosphere. We are talking about a tank that we do not have all the info on. Is it closed off? What is the amount of water surface? What is the humidity level outside the tank? If the humidity outside the tank is 30% and you have a small water surface with half the tank covered how high would you need to crank the heat to get the humidity to an acceptable level? If it was as easy as get your ambient to 80 in anyway possible then we wouldn't have threads where people are saying I can't keep humidity up and why is my snake dehydrated? At high 60s to low 70s ambient temp I have condensation in my tubs. There is no light on my tubs just heat tape set at 87 degrees.

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Originally Posted by Chkadii

The explanations of calculating temperature averages are starting to give me nightmares about bell curves, standard deviations, and T-tests from my old stat. class! :omg:

I think there may be a miscommunication over the humidity argument, and you're arguing a similar point. It seems like some people are arguing physics (warm air evaporating water more quickly than cooler air) while OP is arguing that in glass tanks humidity is harder to maintain due to the lids, and higher temperatures allow the tank to dry out faster. So in glass tanks, lower heat = slower rate of tank drying out/slower rate of evaporation. It's not that warmer temps lower humidity, it's that they generate humidity too quickly to properly maintain it without constant misting.

So let's say there are two 10g tanks next to each other with screen lids. If the tanks had the same amount of damp substrate and type of heater (be it CHE, lamp, or RHP), but one was set to an ambient 72F and the other is set to an ambient 82F, which tank would have more consistent humidity within the desired parameters for BPs? Which tank would hold humidity longer? A tank too warm may have the right humidity level but it would evaporate completely within a day. A tank too cool would have damp substrate for a week but very little humidity in the air. What the optimal temperature range for the right humidity level for the longest period of time?

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Thank you, you get what I am saying, at least pretty close anyway lol. Sorry about your nightmares but we haven't even talked dew points yet. LOL

Chkadii yes point in fact two identical tanks one with higher ambient air temps will be far easier to hold 15.5 gm/m2 absolute humidity.

At an ambient air temp of 72ºF you need to hold close to 80% RH to be equal humidity as 80ºF 60%. If the air is 84ºF you would only need close to 50% RH to be the same as 80ºF @ 60% RH. I agree that there are many factors but the amount you need is a huge part. (BTW the dew point for all three is the same 65ºF what I am pointing out is related directly to dew point. Many just calculate dew point combinations. basically I am simplifying it)

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Originally Posted by bondo

... Cooler temps makes it easier to keep humidity because the light doesn't need to be on drying the tank out. ...

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This is the statement I commented on, lights don't actually dry out tanks there is no magic 4th state of water and glass has a very low water absorption. lights change the air flow patterns but your statement is basically flawed.

I still see no correlation in using the lowest recorded temps and temperature recommendations. Especially in light of the status changing among biologists to reclassify Royals as crepuscular (yes there is still debate but it is starting). Averaging the coldest temps recorded each day is simply silly, it is likely only represents 20-50 hours of a month. Using an evening morning averages is likely to be closer, and discard the lowest and highest temperatures.

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Originally Posted by kitedemon

Chkadii yes point in fact two identical tanks one with higher ambient air temps will be far easier to hold 15.5 gm/m2 absolute humidity.

At an ambient air temp of 72ºF you need to hold close to 80% RH to be equal humidity as 80ºF 60%. If the air is 84ºF you would only need close to 50% RH to be the same as 80ºF @ 60% RH. I agree that there are many factors but the amount you need is a huge part. (BTW the dew point for all three is the same 65ºF what I am pointing out is related directly to dew point. Many just calculate dew point combinations. basically I am simplifying it)



This is the statement I commented on, lights don't actually dry out tanks there is no magic 4th state of water and glass has a very low water absorption. lights change the air flow patterns but your statement is basically flawed.

I still see no correlation in using the lowest recorded temps and temperature recommendations. Especially in light of the status changing among biologists to reclassify Royals as crepuscular (yes there is still debate but it is starting). Averaging the coldest temps recorded each day is simply silly, it is likely only represents 20-50 hours of a month. Using an evening morning averages is likely to be closer, and discard the lowest and highest temperatures.

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You really think I thought light itself has something to do with humidity? The heat generated is what I was talking about. Again the heat directed in a tank is a problem. You are making broad assumptions on the setup. You are assuming humidity levels that is unknown. I live in WI my humidity will be a lot different then someone who lives in Florida. Right now the outside humidity here is 22% outside and 64 degrees . In New York it is 60 and 38% humidity. In Minneapolis it is 69 and 19% humidity. Dallas it is 66 degrees and 73% humidity. Now with your reasoning if I live in any of these areas I can put a light in my tank to raise the temp to 80 and my humidity will be perfect. It doesn't work that way. However it will dry your tank out unless other things are addressed to make it work. Again we would need to enclose it and have the right amount of water surface to change the humidity. Raising the temp with a light isn't going to do it by itself.

How can you see no correlation with low temps? Ball pythons do not go out at night? How is it silly? You keep saying my thoughts and reasoning are flawed and silly yet you show no examples as to why. You just seem to read as deep as possible into my comments and say that is flawed. I never thought light had anything to do with humidity. Also you seem to think ball pythons do not go out at night. Again I said a long time ago the high and low temps averaged together makes sense IF they only go out in the morning or in the evening. If they go out at night then lows do need to be considered.