If it's ok to...

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

From my understanding, they don't pass the wobble into the combos. Right?

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They do, I have a Spinner girl with a slight wobble.

Yes, all animals carrying the spider gene may wobble, including all combos.

They do not know, currently, what causes the spider wobble. Someone would have to get funding to do a research study on it, and that hasn't been done.

The two top probabilities are a neurological defect, and an inner ear defect. It could be either of those.

The spider's uncertainty as to which direction is up points to an inner ear defect. The spider's general uncoordination might point also to a neurological problem with locomotion.

Spiders do seem to be able to get where they want to go, but they can miss when striking at prey, and they are comfortable in positions ordinary snakes wouldn't be found in more than briefly.

My personal bet is on an inner ear problem, because spiders don't show any sign that they have any other neurological problems, and they can slither around and climb.

Unlike waltzing mice, which wander in circles, spiders seem to be surprisingly comfortable corkscrewing their heads upside down to investigate the top of their cage, and then just staying that way... :)

Someone said that reptile genetics are different from mammalian genetics. I believe this is false. Genetic material is genetic material. It is all made of the same stuff and vulnerable to the same stuff that causes mutation. Mutations and genetic variety are how we got here from sponges and amoebas to ball pythons and humans, so even those creatures can suffer from such effects.

When line breeding anything, the chances of pairing two creatures who are het for anything increases. Even a very small gene pool can withstand inbreeding if the deformed beings can't breed. If every human who got cancer didn't live long enough to have children, cancer would not be nearly as big a concern as it is, considering it's heritability is a such a factor. I'm not saying the amount of wobble is, though, because it's apparent that it's not. I'm just pointing out how line breeding could be used for good.

tl;dr Mammal and reptile genes work the same. Line breeding is not always a bad thing if you cull (or just don't breed) the deformed offspring.

I don't think so. Read this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16000457

It's kind of hard to read, but my understanding is there is a big difference between mammals and reptiles genetically.

It would explain why they don't catch diseases as easily as we do, and there are far less things that can make a reptile sick. Hence, they don't need nasty immunity shots.

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Originally Posted by stevepoppers

Someone said that reptile genetics are different from mammalian genetics. I believe this is false. Genetic material is genetic material. It is all made of the same stuff and vulnerable to the same stuff that causes mutation. Mutations and genetic variety are how we got here from sponges and amoebas to ball pythons and humans, so even those creatures can suffer from such effects.

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The material is the same, it's not like they're running on a different system. However they have a lot less genes and as such arent as complex as humans/mammals. Thus line breeding will have a lower likelihood of making a deadly/crippling/etc trait present itself.

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Originally Posted by stratus_020202

I don't think so. Read this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16000457

It's kind of hard to read, but my understanding is there is a big difference between mammals and reptiles genetically.

It would explain why they don't catch diseases as easily as we do, and there are far less things that can make a reptile sick. Hence, they don't need nasty immunity shots.

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It's talking about bacteria and how they developed differently between mammals and reptiles. That doesnt suggest that they have vastly different genetic design/composition. It simply means that reptile and mammal bacteria evolved down two different paths.

What we do have to support difference between them is that we line breed and it doesnt have much of a detrimental effect, pointing, potentially, to a narrower gene pool that doesnt have many genetic related diseases in it.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Seriously? No wait......seriously??????????

No - culling adds more clarity. Now you're just being insulting.

Google really is your friend if you're unsure of a term being used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culling

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To cinder I extend a sincere appology, I did not mean to pick on you for using that word, as I already saw that it is a common word here on the forums.

And to rabernet, I am just sorry you took it the wrong way. But I just would like you to see it the way I was thinking at the time:

Culling would be to take an animal from the gene pool, and euthanasia would be to put an animal out of it's misery. So if the spiders do not inherit wobble, then you would actually be euthanizing and not culling!!! ;)

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Originally Posted by sungmina

So... I'm new here and can't say I know a lot about breeding Ball Pythons, but I know about breeding ethics especially with dogs (German Shepherds in particular.)

While I may be biased, I think spiders are an amazing morph of ball python (I currently only own one BP and it is a spider.) I understand that spiders are notorious for having a wobble to some degree, I also understand that in the VAST majority of spiders, this wobble does not affect the quality of life in the animal in any way.

Now I'm not saying that it should just be overlooked, but I think that the spider morph is one that is important enough (to the creation of other morphs) and beautiful enough on its own to be valued by the BP community. I simply do not see the point in bashing those who choose to breed the morph to the point of demonizing these people.

German Shepherds were brought up in an earlier post as having hip displasia and then someone else remarked that the dogs with the 'hip displasia gene' were not bred. This is simply not true, not because there are irresponsible breeders breeding animals with hip displasia, but because they don't know exactly what causes it. While they try to place dogs together with healthy hips, it does not always result in puppies with healthy hips and vice versa.

Hip displasia would be much less common by now if they knew how to prevent it. HOWEVER, instead of giving up cold turkey on breeds with a high incidence of hip displasia (which is most large breeds) there are many breeders that for the love of their breed are working hard to make improvements. It is also a disease that has varying levels of severity, some dogs may have near perfect hips (I've yet to see PERFECT X-rays but I suppose it is subjective) while some dogs are so crippled by displasia that they can not walk.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that, instead of being so negative about the morph maybe try to appreciate the amazing things that have come out of it and be hopeful for its future. I imagine any responsible breeder is working towards breeding healthy spiders with as little 'wobble' as possible. This is something I can appreciate and I think other BP lovers should try to appreciate as well.

I respect the breeders that are trying to improve the spider morphs and I don't think they should feel guilty about working with them. The same applies to those that work with caramels and any other morph with known issues. But I do believe that those who do work with these morphs should hold a higher level of responsibility to ensure that they are doing what they can to produce healthy disease-free animals (or as close to as they can get.) And I hope that there are breeders that are passionate enough about these morphs and hopefully some day we will see wobble free spiders and kink free caramels.

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This is right in line with the research I have done on hip displasia. It can pop up from 2 parents who are considered low risk, just like spiders with low wobble can produce spiders with more wobble. Dogs with only mild hip problems can live happy lives, and even more severe cases can be treated, just as spiders with normal wobble go through life without any problems. That is why I made the comparison. That does not mean that we shouldn't do our best to use the best specimens for breeding. I hope I didn't offend any GSD lovers out there, I love GSD's and large breeds in general, and I love spiders and all thier combos.

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Originally Posted by mozbink

There may be an enviromental factor that coincides with a genetic pre-disposition that can agrevate the underlying genetic disease. There are two enviromental factors that have in the past been considered a contributor to causing the disease to progress. Overfeeding and allowing the use of stairs when the animals are still growing. The latter usually was only a factor in large breeds like Mastiffs.

All effort should be taken to avoid breeding animals who are known to have the issue since you cannot say for sure how much of it was caused by poor genetics and how much was caused by enviroment. Sometimes this cannot be avoided as dogs may not show the disease until after they have already had offspring. So in some sense it is not entirely avoidable. But one should try.

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It is true that there are environmental factors that can aggravate the condition and make it worse such as stair climbing, jumping, and running on hard surfaces. But the fact of the matter is, that many large breed dog owners know this, and take extra measures to protect their dog from debilitating illness. I KNOW my GSD has a good chance of developing displasia (to some degree), I was extremely careful about raising him so that he had the best chance of having displaysa-free hips/elbows. I made sure I purchased from German imports with good hip scores (although there are healthy American lines as well) and I carried him up and down stairs as a puppy. And he was not a small puppy to lug around!!

There have been national level dogs competing in Schutzhund or working as Police K9's that develop crippling displasia. These dogs are usually still bred but often only to dogs that have outstanding hips/elbows. I've come to realize that there is no 'perfect' dog. Sometimes they have great hips/elbows but can't function as anything other than a bed warmer and then sometimes there are dogs with great working ability (for military, sport, police) but they are displastic.

Breeders simply do not know what causes displasia and while they are working to improve it, there are still many puppies being born that end up with severe displasia at a young age. Despite this fact, there are many more puppies being born with healthy hips/elbows (or with displasia that is mild enough to never be noticed) and breeders work towards this.

What I mean to conclude by this comparison is that if we are willing to help our dog breeds that are prone to a debilitating disease, then why are we not willing to help a morph of ball python with a condition that is usually mild?

I think breeders should continue working with spiders but just be cautious and aware that they may have to work a little harder to make sure their snakes are as healthy as possible. And one day we may discover what exactly is causing the animal to 'wobble' and remove it from the morph entirely. But if we don't I see no problem in breeding spiders as long as they are healthy and 'happy'.