News: 2 die in rock python attack

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Originally Posted by mrkrec

Article from 2 days ago..

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...s-escaped.html

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The guy they interviewed in the article is the same moron that claimed this guy had the snake legally. I don't know why they are still listening to him. He does not know what he is talking about.

Yeah... It's going to make a straight up vertical climb through a vent system.... Vents are pretty smooth metal, so this heavy bodied snake went 90 degrees straight up and didn't break any vent systems until above the room....

I'm going to guess either the following.

Carbon monoxide from the snake somehow falling (I haven't seen diagrams on how the vent system works, in case the snake DID get up there). OR

Double homicide, guy took out the fan, put a hole in the ceiling, , and placed the snake in the room before calling police to have a scape goat...

I'm willing to bet his vent system isn't even big enough to accommodate the snake either....

I keep getting grief about this from strangers who find out I keep large snakes, and I have to take 15 minutes to explain the logistics of exactly how impossible this stuff is...

It's been touched on before but I think it's important to mention it again. If the cause of death is asphyxiation then it wasn't caused by constriction. Constriction from a snake that size doesn't just stop the lungs from working, it also stops the heart from pumping and the blood from circulating. Constriction from a snake that size is going to show up as cardiac arrest, not asphyxiation.

I saw an article on Facebook it said they are calling it a murder investigation now, apparently the mother had made several calls to people talking about the snake as if to be establish an alibi and a snake expert told the police that they would have woken up up and there would be snake bite marks on the boys.

1.1 pastels, 1.0 lesser, 0.1 spider, 1.3 norm. 1.0 fire 0.1 RTB 0.0 sav. Mon.

That is a false article with no sources, from Australia, no less.

People can we please stop beating this dead horse?

There is nothing left to question or speculate. Answers either will, or will not come out. Nobody knows. So wait patiently.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

That is a false article with no sources, from Australia, no less.

People can we please stop beating this dead horse?

There is nothing left to question or speculate. Answers either will, or will not come out. Nobody knows. So wait patiently.

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Nobody knows? I know the snake alone was not what killed these kids, just like I know I have on a pair of shorts right now, and I know I just cleaned up a gallon of retic piss from my snake room floor.

Not a dead horse if people still are so naive to believe the snake actually did what is claimed. ;)

I don't believe anything without facts present, which there are none of.

Here's an article from the 17th (2 days ago). It touches on this case (while mostly talking about 40 ball pythons seized from a motel room), stating it is an ongoing criminal investigation.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/worl...icle-1.1429707

Another article, from the 12th, indicating ongoing criminal investigation:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...-brampton.html

I can't find anything else on the matter.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...ton-blood.html

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...oys-death.html

And it is a criminal investigation. Looks like the shop owner is at the very least being investigated for criminal negligence causing death.

Whether or not the snake did in fact asphyxiate those boys is a moot point in my opinion. The circumstances surrounding their deaths, as well as a few other news stories lately, may have a negative impact on our hobby, but we as a group need to unify instead of trying to redirect blame. The masses don't care that the vast majority of us can/do keep these pets responsibly, they only see the bad keepers that portray our hobby in a negative light.

Still under investigation.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Still under investigation.

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Thanks for that update. Let's hope that the Canadian authorities are wise enough to consult with actual python experts before placing the blame firmly on the snake, (a scenario many of us regard as doubtful at best).

S

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

Thanks for that update. Let's hope that the Canadian authorities are wise enough to consult with actual python experts before placing the blame firmly on the snake, (a scenario many of us regard as doubtful at best).

S

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Actually I think the fact that they are still investigating means they are doing just that. I think, with the publicity and public outcry, it would have been easy for them to just place all the blame on the snake and go for "quick justice." I admire the RCMP for taking their time on this.

Thanks for the update. I have a feeling that this was a case of foul play, too many things just don't add up.

Well, the news media is at it again. This is unrelated to the alleged "python attack" in New Brunswick, but it is just as skewed and mis-informative as that story was. Here is a story airing today on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/19/us/new...nn-disqus-area, which is a story about the legal travails of Snakeman's Exotics in New York state. Of course the fact that his animals were well-kept and healthy was mentioned but buried in the article, the headline was "850 snakes part of New York man's home business, authorities say", the news being that someone had 850 snakes at his home, (oh horrors of horrors!). At most the guy may have a few issues with zoning laws, but from what I can see the guy is a responsible herper. Why this deserves to make the national news obviously has nothing to do with husbandry, but everything to do with sensationalism. There was also another link to a news article about a ball python collection which was confiscated: http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/16/world/...ons/index.html.

Folks, I fear the wolves are at the door. The powers of ignorance and bigotry are alive and well in North America!

S

I really wish people would do their own proper research before spewing garbage out of their mouths...

Makes me crazy to hear someone say, "Oh, just wait til that snake gets older, it's gonna eat you in your sleep."

The media takes these animals and paints them as monsters. Sad, but the animals are the ones who mostly suffer from this. And that makes me even more sad.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/review-...mier-1.1463169

Thanks for the update. I noticed the article DID NOT say "allegedly" killed by a python, just "killed by a python". At least we know the police are still investigating. I took a year of journalism classes in college, and have yet to see anything written about this incident that I would call journalistic; makes me wonder if the news media there know the definition of the word.

S

Last month I was at a small aquarium with an exhibit of several large burms and retics. The guy doing the snake demo talked about how dangerous these animals are and told everyone there about the 'Burmese python" in Canada that had recently killed two children.

When the supposed expert is giving this spiel to tourists three times a day...

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Originally Posted by Libby

Last month I was at a small aquarium with an exhibit of several large burms and retics. The guy doing the snake demo talked about how dangerous these animals are and told everyone there about the 'Burmese python" in Canada that had recently killed two children.

When the supposed expert is giving this spiel to tourists three times a day...

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"Supposed" expert is correct. Most zoos and aquariums train docents in the "no-one-but-zoos-should-keep-exotics" mentality, (as espoused by the AAZPA, Humane Society, PETA, etc). Some expert, doesn't even know the difference between a Burm and an African Rock. Truth is a large python can be dangerous, but the circumstances surrounding the incident in New Brunswick doesn't add up to death by python in my opinion; something else happened in that house. In the meantime the news media will go with the sensational headline before the facts every time.



S

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

"Supposed" expert is correct. Most zoos and aquariums train docents in the "no-one-but-zoos-should-keep-exotics" mentality, (as espoused by the AAZPA, Humane Society, PETA, etc). Some expert, doesn't even know the difference between a Burm and an African Rock. Truth is a large python can be dangerous, but the circumstances surrounding the incident in New Brunswick doesn't add up to death by python in my opinion; something else happened in that house. In the meantime the news media will go with the sensational headline before the facts every time.

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Agree with you on all points. I should mention the speaker wasn't a docent. It was a VERY small facility and the staff who care for the animals and dive in the tanks show the guests around.

I'm still a newbie, but I was also unimpressed with the husbandry. There were two crowded enclosures, both had multiple snakes in them. (Is it ok to house more than one Burmese or Retic together? Like I said, I'm pretty new.) I don't know what the temps/humidity were like, but at least one snake looked like it had had a really bad shed.

To be completely fair, the staff seemed to really care about the animals and were very protective of the ones that were brought out for interaction with the public (a Burm and a baby gator). They also mentioned that some of the large snakes had come from private owners who were no longer able to care for them, and the patchy ones MAY have arrived there that way. Or not.

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Originally Posted by Libby

Agree with you on all points. I should mention the speaker wasn't a docent. It was a VERY small facility and the staff who care for the animals and dive in the tanks show the guests around.

I'm still a newbie, but I was also unimpressed with the husbandry. There were two crowded enclosures, both had multiple snakes in them. (Is it ok to house more than one Burmese or Retic together? Like I said, I'm pretty new.) I don't know what the temps/humidity were like, but at least one snake looked like it had had a really bad shed.

To be completely fair, the staff seemed to really care about the animals and were very protective of the ones that were brought out for interaction with the public (a Burm and a baby gator). They also mentioned that some of the large snakes had come from private owners who were no longer able to care for them, and the patchy ones MAY have arrived there that way. Or not.

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Usually not a great idea, but as long as they are fed separately and kept clean I guess it's possible, (but not really recommended). Problems I've personally seen in such situations are lack of hygiene, (stink, mites, mess), and then I saw one instance in a pet store years ago in SoCal where two bigger burms were stupidly fed together inside their single enclosure, (by a very dumb employee of the store). The two snakes ended up striking/constricting one rabbit at the same time, the guy called for help but even then they were barely able to pry one of them off that rabbit, (and each other, had to pull that big ball 'o snakes and the rabbit all the way out of their cage to do it); it was quite a good floor show actually, very entertaining to watch. Had they not gotten them apart the larger of the two would have just kept going and swallowed the other...rabbit and all. Back then, (waayy back then), I had 3 Burms in the 12'-14' range, (no Retics or African rocks though, both species were too nasty tempered for me), but had separate enclosures for them. I'm only keeping Balls nowadays, but did keep the biggies when I was young, spry and less wise, (glad I outgrew that particular "phase" of my herping life).
So, the incident in New Brunswick sounds very unlikely to me, and I can say that having had hands-on experience with big pythons they are dangerous if taken for granted, but two children at once with no one hearing any commotion? Possible, yes......probable, no! I admit that an African Rock and a Burmese are polar opposites as far as temperament goes, and if you want to get badly bitten be incautious with an AR. However, I still can't imagine a circumstance where an AR would, or even could constrict two kids to death at once like it was described in the news....knowing what I know it just doesn't make any sense.

S

Tougher exotic pet laws promised following python deaths
I'm still curious what has become of the criminal investigation.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

Tougher exotic pet laws promised following python deaths
I'm still curious what has become of the criminal investigation.

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The article mentioned that there was still an investigation going on, but didn't say anything else. I bet despite what the investigation reveals the regulations will be stiffened. At this point the government has to be seen as doing something, they can't ignore the publicity this event created; they will eventually do something. Whether it's something based on fact and science is another matter, it will most likely be a knee-jerk reaction which further restricts reptile keeping.....too bad.

S

Just an update about this case.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...lton-1.2946509

Thanks. I see the lunacy and ignorance have already taken hold in the comments.

Why did you have to mention the comments...my day would have been so much better if I would not have went back and scrolled down to see the comments LOL

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Thanks. I see the lunacy and ignorance have already taken hold in the comments.

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Not sure if anyone has posted an update yet. Sad story all around, unfortunate that 3 human lives were ruined and probably the poor snake too!

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2...h-of-boys.html

:mad: such a small article for such a long story there is more missing than is included. I actually have met Jean-Claude the snake owner and visited the shop/zoo (used in loose of terms...) it was a mess 7 years ago. It is the oddest case ever, the facts as we understand at this point are super sketchy. The snake left an enclosure (originally designed to house crocodilians) through a ceiling vent that had no cover (negligence IMO) the snake made its way upstairs and came through a ceiling vent to where the boys were sleeping on the living room floor. I guess it dropped down to the floor level (without waking anyone...?) and killed one boy then went on to kill the second. (still not waking anyone up??)

African Rock pythons need a zoo permit in NB they have for years. The stupid part is DNR gave reptile ocean a zoo permit, and actually the snake in question was seized and released to Reptile Ocean for 'safe' keeping. They then allowed the zoo permit to lapse and the yearly inspections stopped because they no longer possessed a permit. DNR also never removed the snake or other illegal animals they had records of.

There case is in the courts now and heads are going to roll, DNR heads and the snake owner is cooked (IMO) there is no way he can defend a snake escaping through a 8 inch vent shaft that had no grill or cover of any kind.

It makes me furious, those kids should never have died! The media sh1t show has caused no end of panic in the area (where I live) a few months ago a owner of a baby ball python told the super of his apartment building that his baby snake escaped and the resulting memo advised the other tenants to keep their children and pets supervised because the missing python could kill them. DNR is reviewing all snake ownership, and every snake is being called into question. It is such a mess. I saw the poor conditions the animals at reptile Ocean were housed under and the poor attitude of the staff that worked there.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/owner-o...ing-1.1423259#
http://globalnews.ca/news/769386/mis...cean-employee/
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-br...flaw-1.1384533

fall out...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...bies-1.2651165

I can't help making the link released pets, python scare, dnr taking expensive permits, apartments that allowed snakes now changing their minds and threatening evictions. Could there be a relation? gee...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-s...oman-1.1300417

:taz:

The plot thickens! I don't understand why a snake would kill/'attack' 2 kids (or anything for that matter) unless there was some sort of struggle and the snake reacted or it smelled like food. Heat + breathing movement + human boy smell = serial killer python? Maybe mom or dad decided on a late abortion?

They apparently visited a farm that morning and were playing with goats or something. But it is still odd a large snake constricting dropping and moving on to the next? Not attempting to eat just to kill? Makes no sense. The whole thing stinks to high heaven. My boss was called for an interview it is the first time I have ever seen her speechless. She could make no sense of why a snake would kill and not try to feed. All she managed was 'they don't do that.' The media never wanted to hear this so they didn't bother and found someone else to talk to who had more sensational things to say. The only coverage she got was a generic experts are baffled by the behaviour. Every snake person i know doesn't get it either.

The whole thing is hinky. The two kids were guests the boy they were visiting was asleep in his room, my experiences with sleep overs was a big thing in the friends room. How does a 90 lb snake come out of a vent 8 feet off the floor and not make a big crash? Maybe, but mine make a thump falling 10 inches and weighing only 8 lbs. There are too many questions and few answers.

The though there is something more than just poor ownership that it was intentional has been bantered around since it happened. I can't say that, but the negligence laws in my area have some serious teeth. Two counts of criminal negligence causing death carry two life sentences. Murder of criminal negligence causing death there is a defence for murder (crime of passion, insanity, ect.) criminal negligence causing death you were or were not, once the facts are figured it is hard to defend. It almost doesn't matter. I feel sorry for the mother (friend of the snakes owner) and completely mad at the rest, It should never have happened, the media mess, the fall out all of it.

Here's my usual work day
http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/15...86f2ad2fc3.jpg

1.2 Normal
1.1 Red-tail
0.1 Albino corn

I thought constrictors killed by cardiac arrest and not asphyxiation?

There is already a long thread here somewhere about this, is there any new info or is everything still hung up in the courts?

The death of the boys is very sad and I don't think anyone denies it was a tragedy. I do find it strange that even a snake known for a foul temper would just kill two boys without making an attempt to eat either, let alone that it was able to kill one and the other did nothing to get away or get help. The whole thing smells like foul play to me and I wish they'd investigate more than just neglect.

I don't see why they would revisit exotic ownership laws, seeing as the species in question was already illegal to own. The department that oversees those laws is probably in for a world of crap, though.

That whole thing sounded suspicious when I first heard it.
I saw some of the craziness that went on afterward. I read one article where the police got called over someone's abandoned ball python...

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Originally Posted by Darkbird

There is already a long thread here somewhere about this, is there any new info or is everything still hung up in the courts?

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They just got around to arresting the snake/business owner and charged him with criminal negligence causing death the end of last month (he fled the provence). It is waiting trial I think not sure however. It is clear that there is a lot of people in trouble with this.

I agree that it should not effect current laws but you know, they seem to think making new laws will control illegal pets more will work when the old laws making them illegal did. :confusd: or something... Or maybe they are trying to save themselves by implying that the snake was legal and NOW it is not legal... The whole situation is a mess. Someone whom has for many years claimed to be a 'reptile expert' should know better (I mean how large would a snake have to be to NOT fit in a even a 6 inch tube?)

It is so sad, the whole thing should never have happened.

http://news.sky.com/story/1456531/ma...lled-by-python

Didn't believe it then, don't believe it now.

look Ma! I'm onna phone!

Amazing how careful they are with their words, notice they never say the snake killed them? Atleast I can't see anything wrong in there, just obviously trying to lead you to a wrong conclusion.

I hate media people they twist and spin everything.

I am in NS, I have a lot of NB friends, my breeder is in NB. It is a mess and the media are making bad worse by half truths and innuendo. I cannot stomach the pages of posts, sorry, I am too close to this. It is tragic an senseless and completely avoidable. I have been to the shop, Reptile Ocean, met the snake owner once or twice and am likely going to be effected by DNR changes.

things I know to be true.

The owner had a zoo permit and DNR placed animals they seized with him, including the 'rock in question. The permit lapsed, yet no one from DNR did anything they just stopped bringing new animals and stopped doing the inspections involved in meeting the zoo permit requirements.

The shop was not the best I have been in nor the worst but the feeling of neglect was everywhere on my last visit many years ago. (Things not as clean as the should be, poor paint quality, messy... like the passion was gone.)

The 'expert' owner should have known that an African Rock can climb and fit inside a large vent shaft if there was no grill or fan to prevent it. I think we all would believe this is a escape waiting to happen.

He left the province and has been picked up and returned for trial.

It is odd behaviour for any snake.

The boys were at a farm with in 24 hours of the incident.

They were at a sleep over but the third child was not in the room with them he was in his own bedroom.

What I believe,

There are far more questions than answers.

There is more going on than we are being told.

That it is likely to effect the government staff as well.

I can't see how unless there is some procedure failing that the snake owner is not negligent. There was nothing over the vent duct it was wide open. (6 or 8 inch duct at that.)

It is going to effect the laws regarding exotic animal ownership in our area. (already has in fact.)

I am very sad that two boys died. I believe that this is 100% preventable and should never have happened. It is no mystery how the snake escaped, it is a mystery why the missing fan and grill was allowed to be missing for some time.

I just happened to be listening to an interview about this case on an old urban jungles radio a couple nights ago and he interviewed the wildlife expert they called in to identify reptiles and take illegal ones. That expert said that the hole in the ceiling looked "old" to him, like it had been there for a long time and that the cage was only about 8' away from the boys, so in his opinion, it had no need to climb into duct work if it was after the boys.

For me... This whole thing is fishy. I could believe that a large constrictor could kill 1 small child, but killing 2 right next to each other without the second one waking up and to crash through the ceiling without making any noise to wake people up? Unless the boys had been drugged so that they wouldn't wake up or the owner wasn't even there to hear the noise, I just don't see how this could happen in a real-life situation.

This situation is definitely negligence at best... But I keep thinking that it is more than that.

kitedemon- I am so sorry that you and many others will be effected by this.. this is just a tragic situation all around. :/

There's an interview o the reptile guy they had come in an identify animals (after the original event) on urban jungles radio. HE said that the cage for the snake was about 8' away from where the boys were sleeping and that there was no need for it to climb into a vent and that the hole in the ceiling looked old to him (preexisting). I did not hear the whole interview, just what UJR had put up on video on youtube.

I find this all very hard to swallow... and my assumption is that there was something more intentional to this, whether that be drugging of the kids (so they wouldn't react), or something else, but common sense says that things couldn't have happened as the media and police are depicting them. Unless the police are maybe not telling all the evidence (so they can wait and charge him at trial or something)?

Heard on the new today that the trial for this case has finally started. Figured I'd resurrect this thread rather than starting a whole new one.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/python-...?autoPlay=true

Admittedly, I am still an amateur herper, and with limited knowledge about the larger species. Nonetheless, some of the statements presented in court so far have me alternately face-palming or going "Duh, of course it will react in X fashion if you're doing action Y to it." :confusd:

Any giant keepers care to weigh in?

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2016/...-as-slept.html

Original thread...
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/show...k-python/page2

What bothers me is that the autopsy on the boys states that they were killed via asphyxiation. Large constrictors kill via cardiac arrest.

I'm not a doctor so I don't know if the two would be discernible or not on an autopsy.

Maybe I just have a suspicious mind, but my first thought, considering the way that species usually kills and eats, is that it just might be a double murder set up to blame the snake. Some of the first things I'd check are life insurance policies and child support liabilities and payments or missed payments, and not necessarily those of the snake owner. People have paid off others to "take care of business" before.

Then again, maybe I just have a suspicious mind.

The CTV story mentions that the boys had numerous wounds which would fit a python bite. But the fact that they did not wake up does not make sense. Makes me think that drink or drugs are involved. The officer’s description of the snake’s super aggressive behavior sounds off.

just saw this story, very tragic.
any thoughts? this doesn't seem very likely to me. may they rest in peace.