Why We Are Idiots For Using Kingsnake.com To Price Our Animals

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Originally Posted by The Beast

Interesting read,

When do you expect this new site will be up Colin?

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I'm a busy guy just like every other person on the planet. The initiative is not a one-man show and I am working with some very respected names in the business to get things going. I'll avoid name dropping for the time being.

I'd like to see something moving before the storm of the '09 babies hit the market. I know some are popping their heads out now but it won't be ready for them.

Well, it's a heck of an undertaking and I hope you much success.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

I'm confused.

Some of you seem concerned that prices are too high.

Yet others seem concerned that prices are too low.

Perhaps the motivation behind our/your deep concerns should be brought out and examined.

Is it money, profit, getting mine because I've done the work, that is the motivation here or is it get back at some assclowns, or is it purely philanthropic?

Motivations matter.

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For a lot of people, it's probably a lot of the above. I'm saying that about prices dropping too low, too fast, not prices being too high. I've always been into snakes, and I wanted an albino ball from the second I saw one in Reptiles magazine. I wasn't upset that the prices were way too high for me. That might have even added a little to my coveting. I waited patiently until I could afford a pair of hets, then in '06 I closed my money market savings and bought a a male albino and a couple of normal females. I knew that being a recessive mutation that had held it's value well for over a decade, I would get to finally own the goal possession of my childhood, and by breeding it, I would be able to make the same return that I would have if I left my savings in place.

I think that story illustrates a common theme or scenario for hobbyists that really love the animals. Breeding to break even or even turn a small profit is the only way we can afford to get into the hobby in the first place.

I will be hatching my first hets this season, and since my female het is a stubborn feeder, I won't be hatching my first albino until 2010. That's four years of raising up five snakes, standard fecal floats, not to mention the $2k original investment. So am I in it for the love of the animals, or am I in it for the money?

And what about the breeders who are the first to import a project? Some spend $100k to import a couple of projects, with one of them proving to be a cool looking, $50,000 normal, or a $60,000 yellow belly. Then people complain when the project that worked out costs $25k to buy into, and when you can't buy into it for under $1,000 a few years later. Do we have no appreciation for the people who take such huge financial risks to introduce new mutations for the rest of us to be able to one day work with? There are plenty of snakes out there for people who only want to spend $100. We shouldn't be an any hurry to bring the prices into their affordable range as quickly as we do. If they really love an animal, they will either wait a decade, or save every penny to get their hands on one. Because like me, a lot of them will want to breed it to try and make some of that money back. So when we see all these expensive morphs dropping under $1k, that's when every kid and his mom buy them up to breed, and the next year is the end of that market completely, through these guys breeding the hell out of them to their female craigslist rescues and dropping the prices to $90 so they can sell out in two weeks, because they don't have the space or the budget to take care of the snakes they have, much less 12-18 babies.

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Originally Posted by ColinWeaver

I'm not trying to fix prices. I'm trying to stabilize their decline; because decline they always will. The ball python market is an open market and anybody will be able to do whatever they decide to do when it comes to price. www.reptitrack.com's intent is to help people know what something is worth before labeling it at a show or posting it on-line. That's it. The ball python industry alone is a multi-billion industry and pricing on a whim just seems so silly. Because I love ball pythons and breeding them I want to help produce an environment where I can afford to do it for the rest of my life.

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Bravo, can't wait to see the site up and running at full force.

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Originally Posted by PythonWallace

And what about the breeders who are the first to import a project? Some spend $100k to import a couple of projects, with one of them proving to be a cool looking, $50,000 normal, or a $60,000 yellow belly. Then people complain when the project that worked out costs $25k to buy into, and when you can't buy into it for under $1,000 a few years later. Do we have no appreciation for the people who take such huge financial risks to introduce new mutations for the rest of us to be able to one day work with? There are plenty of snakes out there for people who only want to spend $100. We shouldn't be an any hurry to bring the prices into their affordable range as quickly as we do. If they really love an animal, they will either wait a decade, or save every penny to get their hands on one. Because like me, a lot of them will want to breed it to try and make some of that money back. So when we see all these expensive morphs dropping under $1k, that's when every kid and his mom buy them up to breed, and the next year is the end of that market completely, through these guys breeding the hell out of them to their female craigslist rescues and dropping the prices to $90 so they can sell out in two weeks, because they don't have the space or the budget to take care of the snakes they have, much less 12-18 babies.

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That's the same thought I had.

And although there are more morphs on the market today has demand really dropped that much to justify a 50-80% drop in the price asked for morphs? I don't think so. I would have paid thousands for a particular morph years ago and, I would pay the same price today if that's what they are selling for.

I would support Colin's website and agree that there should be some sort of guideline. I personally don't breed my animals for a living but I don't find anything wrong with doing it and I think these businesses deserve some protection on their investments.

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

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Originally Posted by RebelYell83

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

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So you started a 3 way investment breeding group and spent $250 on a pastel? Where did you get your females to breed him to, and for how much?

You obviously saw that pastel prices had dropped in half every year for several years before you made your "investment". What did you expect to happen?

If you only had $250 to spend on an investment, maybe you should have thought about a species and morph that lays more than 6 eggs a year, and one that has held it's value better than the ball python morphs have been once they are cheap enough to get into the hands of investors like you and your friends. Do you think that you and your friends are the only ones who made plans to get rich breeding "expensive ball morphs" once they drop down into the <$800 price range? Everyone and their mom's want in. With everyone and their mom breding the cheaper morphs, the market gets flooded with thousands of cheaper, crappier looking morphs, and it's over.

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Originally Posted by RebelYell83

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

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Sounds like you didn't do enough research. Pastel prices have been dropping rapidly for quite a while.

I don't think you'll be breeding any females at 12 months either, if that's what you were implying above, it was sort of hard to understand. I believe that het pied females are still in the 400.00 range so you may want to take that into consideration. Why get a het male and have a chance at pieds when you can get a pied for a grand?

I'm thinking you and your partners should do a little more research before you do any more investing. Getting in on the bottom of something, which is were pastels are pricewise, is not generally going to bring a huge return profitwise.

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Originally Posted by RebelYell83

where this is hurting me,is last year,i bought my first morph,a 300gram blonde pastel male for 250,now my brother,and a friend of ours,is all in a breeding group,which means anything we sell,,gets cut in 3rds,and when now,,just ONE season later,i am looking at blonde pastels going for 100 or less for males,and last season i paid 250,wtf is that?,these prices are declining WAY to fast.i would love tot urn this into a large pet shop/show room/tourist stop in and hang out place eventually,but how is that going to happen,selling all morphs,for in a couple years,under 500 for everything at this rate.at this rate guys,in 3 years we will have to PAY people at shows,to take our normals home,as out pastel lines witll be 35 dollars for males,we are raising up a het pied male,and 50% girls,we are looking at another 12 months as the earliest of producing a pied,by the time we get ours we are holding back,the first one we sll to the public,will be the price of a 400 het female hatchling now.ALL of this started with Morph King a few years ago,,and see whats happening now?,i would of GLADLY paid 500 for my pastel male,if that was the going price.but in just one season,to see the price i paid cut in half,het pied males for 50 now,that means 50% het's have to be around 30,which means normal males already have to be around 20 or so,how much lower can we possibly go?

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This right here is the way of thinking that is so dangerous to prices. You don't HAVE to price your animals lower than the other guys. Price them at what you think they're worth. If you pick your pairings carefully and produce quality offspring, price them HIGHER than the average pastel on the market. I can tell you right now I won't be selling ANY of the male pastels I produce this season for $100. I'll keep them myself before I do that. $20 for normals? Again, I'll keep them myself before I sell them at that price. Petsmart sells normals for $80 each, why can't you?

most of what we have in the group is hets for visuals,as none of us have a lot to drop on any animal,so,seeing as how reccesives hold value better,seemed like the smarter route in the long run.I could be wrong,we'll find out in time.this season coming up,we will be producing lessers,YB,mojaves,orange ghosts,pastels,and possibly spiders and cinnies,so we are getting there,need to start somewhere,so figured why not the pastel,actual break down of how it is,is we each buy for our own collections,then we worry about the breeding,Wil,will be 12 months before the poss het girls we picked up,will be ready to breed,,as they are nowhere,nor will they be anywhere near 1500 grams at 12months of age:),and when dealing with 3 guys,who can barely scrape by to pay bills,,went with hets as it is,,,cheaper?,and,wed liek to hatch our own pied for the breeding,,kinda get the satisfaction of it,if that makes any sense.Wallace,yeah i see what your saying,,i just think the prices,are dropping to fast,i know they are still finding stuff to import,the next new morph,so there will always be something high end,but that will run out eventually,and i am already hearing big breeders talking about pastels in pet stores for 100 within 2-3 more years,and albinos in pet stores for less then 300 in that same time frame,but then kevin and brain was on reptile radio talking about albinos will never drop much below 500,and pieds under 1 grand,,so which do you guys see it being?