New Balls

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Mike,

I'm not sure where you said we preach not to get imported animals. Some of my most prized snakes are captive hatched animals who were imported as babies.

I'm not sure where you infer that this adult female was a recent import? I don't recall either Josh or Alan having stated that.

Also, to my knowledge, J&J doesn't breed their own animals, they are distributors, not breeders.

ANY time I purchase an animal, it's up to me as a responsible owner to ask questions before the purchase. And I also would NOT start breeding a new to my collection breedable weight animal until they exited quarantine.

I know these came from the same source, but I like to get my animals settled, get fecal tests done, get them eating well for me.

I believe from what I've read that there's equal culpability on both sides. Josh should have divulged that this was a new animal with no known back ground, but Alan should have probably asked more about the history of the animal. I also would never have put another male with a female that's already had an explosive bowel movement without first getting a clean fecal test on her.

Alan is learning, unfortunately the hard way, just how important it is, especially with the dollars he spent, to ask a lot of questions, and as Sean Bradley likes to say "examine the snake, not the deal". In his excitement to breed this year, he didn't ask the important questions, or take the appropriate action any time you bring in new animals.

J&J has worked out a resolution that Alan is happy with. People make mistakes, and both parties made mistakes. It's how you handle it and learn from it that is the true measure of the type of person you are. I believe that they both have learned, and I see no reason why I wouldn't purchase from J&J if they had an animal that I liked (and I really like the blurry they have up, actually) - but I'd also query him on their back ground and quarantine and get fecal tests done.

I don't see any evidence of them being a bad guy, just someone who probably should have communicated with an eager buyer a little bit better. If 1/2 the vet costs is amenable to Alan, I don't see why any of us should be outraged about the agreement they came to.

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Robin.. How many other people were sent snakes from josh in the last 2 months? I'd be outraged if it was more then the 7-9 snakes alan got..

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Originally Posted by JASBALLS

Robin.. How many other people were sent snakes from josh in the last 2 months? I'd be outraged if it was more then the 7-9 snakes alan got..

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Why? Are you aware of specific people who also have sick animals from Josh? If I'd purchased from J&J in the last 2 months, mine would have already had fecals done and a wellness visit.

It sounds to me that this female was the infected animal, and exposure to her resulted in positive tests for the pastel and pin.

I'm not suggested that there AREN'T other animals who might have parasites, but I've not seen anyone else report problems with their animals, either here or on the thread on Fauna.

I'm not willing to hang J&J over this one reported case when there were clear mistakes made by BOTH parties. I've never purchased from them, I don't know them. Their advertising dollars with BP.net (as are any other advertiser) are not for profit, but are put back into the site with upgrades, servers, etc. If they are truly a bad guy, we'll know soon enough, and be asked to remove their ads. It's not like we aren't lacking people who would happily fill their banner slot.

Well like I said in other posts I'll not buy from someone that does not produce their own animals. Robin what are the important questions??? I was told the animal was good to go, am I supposed to think automatically that he is a liar?? I don't understand.... You have me confused here. I guess I should have taken every animal and put them all in different rooms for what 3mo maybe then I would have known. I take pride in my husbandry and have otherwise healthy snakes, except from this incident. I don't mean to come across as being mean or anything but I'm confused as to what I could have done if he said this was what I should do. But again I know now not to trust people and to take every animal I get and get a fecal done. So I have learned from this. Again thanks everyone for your response to this thread.

Alan

Scary!!

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

Well like I said in other posts I'll not buy from someone that does not produce their own animals. Robin what are the important questions??? I was told the animal was good to go, am I supposed to think automatically that he is a liar?? I don't understand.... You have me confused here. I guess I should have taken every animal and put them all in different rooms for what 3mo maybe then I would have known. I take pride in my husbandry and have otherwise healthy snakes, except from this incident. I don't mean to come across as being mean or anything but I'm confused as to what I could have done if he said this was what I should do. But again I know now not to trust people and to take every animal I get and get a fecal done. So I have learned from this. Again thanks everyone for your response to this thread.

Alan

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Alan, I'll field a few of your concerns too if you don't mind.

Important questions would be things like (and this is every snake, not just that female):

1) did you produce this snake yourself?
2) if not how and when did you acquire it?
3) is it feeding, defecating, shedding normally?
4) has it had any health concerns since you got it in?
5) if it's any other than a normal, what paperwork will accompany the snake guaranteeing the genetics

Just really 5 simple questions that any reputable person should be able to easily answer for you during the purchasing stage of the transaction before they get dollar 1 from you.

Alan, you don't have to think anyone's a liar but you don't have to automatically do what anyone says or follow anyone's "advice". You're new granted but it also comes down to common sense and checking with other people if you aren't sure of your own knowledge level.

Had you for instance posted here saying "I spent all this money, I got in all these snakes and I'm going to toss the boys in with this girl right away" I can guarantee you you'd have been advised not to by most of our membership. Most would have advised caution and proper settling in and quarantine for all the snakes in that shipment.

As far as having to QT snakes one per room, that's not the norm for anyone really that I know of. Had you known this particular female wasn't a long time snake at J&J, then caution might have had you putting her in another room away from that expensive group of morphs until you made sure she was in great shape. I've had snakes QT'ing in my bedroom, my livingroom, heck I used to have a few in the laundry room at one time LOL. Even now if we have a snake in QT and another one comes in, we restart the QT clock on the snake already in there. They aren't allowed any direct contact but just by being in the same room, we just automatically restart that QT time.

Alan, you don't have to distrust people but you do have to trust yourself, develop your own common sense gut instincts and think about what risks are acceptable and what might end up with you and a bunch of really sick snakes. That's not just you, that's all of us, all the time and every time we expand our collections and make decisions for our snakes.

If this site can be of help to you in learning how to make those decisions, well that's a lot of what we are here for in the first place. :)

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Originally Posted by grunt_11b

Well like I said in other posts I'll not buy from someone that does not produce their own animals. Robin what are the important questions??? I was told the animal was good to go, am I supposed to think automatically that he is a liar?? I don't understand.... You have me confused here. I guess I should have taken every animal and put them all in different rooms for what 3mo maybe then I would have known. I take pride in my husbandry and have otherwise healthy snakes, except from this incident. I don't mean to come across as being mean or anything but I'm confused as to what I could have done if he said this was what I should do. But again I know now not to trust people and to take every animal I get and get a fecal done. So I have learned from this. Again thanks everyone for your response to this thread.

Alan

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When he offered the female as free with the pastel, I would have asked for her history and where he got her. But I'm also aware that he's not a breeder, but an importer and re-seller.

All of the animals would have been quarantined in one room with me. None of them would have been introduced until after a 60 day quarantine, by which time the female would have had the explosive bowel movement and a fecal test run along with a vet visit.

The QT is where I think you made your mistake in your eagerness to start breeding. If someone sells me a breedable weight female, I don't assume that means that she is ready to breed without first going through QT with the other animals I brought in. Especially when I know that they import animals and imported animals very often can carry internal parasites if not treated.

If I purchased from Ben Siegel, who also imports and re-sells, I'd be QTing and fecal testing any animal from him as well. He's got a great reputation as an importer and re-seller.

When I purchase from Michael Cole, I know he works with imported animals. I QT and fecal test animals from him.

The mistake that Josh made was that he didn't give full disclosure on the female which unfortunately had a questionable background and had internal parasites.

You've said that you're satisfied with the resolution that you and Josh have come to.

Again - as I said before - I think there are mistakes made by both sides. I thought that you both had come to an amicable resolution.

Thanks for the help frankie I will keep those questions in mind when I make my next purchase. This site is full of good info, I should have come here and asked about the situation but I didn't. I'm really regretting that now. Again thank you for the info.

Alan

The solution is fine with me. I just think I'm going to try and stick with breeders from now on, you know. Takes out the he said she said. Like I said above I'll keep that in mind with my next purchase Robin.

Alan

I'm not sure where you said we preach not to get imported animals. Some of my most prized snakes are captive hatched animals who were imported as babies.

I didn't even know they did this!? So there are breeders in Africa that ship the babies???? I always assumed that they just caught them... and shipped them...

I HATE to misquote people, and if I did that Robin, I appologize. I just remember reading over and over and over again that WC is BAD BAD BAD! and was VERY surprised to see that one of this sites only advertised companies imports!

Mike

Just to clear this up :

We do not import ourselves we buy all our imports from one of the biggest names in the industry.

We deal with gravids, w.c morphs, and special animals. The only normals we do is c.h animals that as Robin said are farmed every spring in Africa. We deal with a lot of specials that are c.h or w.c as that is the only way to get them. A lot of the animals are very odd and have genetic potential, so we like to have them as odd balls are our speciality.

This might be something for a different thread but imports can do very well as long as they are taken care of and set up properly. Most of our w.c animals start feeding within a month or so, (other than during the winter when they don't feed). The best imports to get are bush babies that are between 200-700 grams as they feed well and acclimate a lot better than w.c adults.

Anyone ever having problems with a picky w.c feel free to contact us for advise as we have had great luck with them and are more than willing to help.

Thanks