Why the heck do people keep breeding spider morphs?

Ahhh fooey!! I have a beautiful spider morph, you know what.. It seems he only does this weird half cork screw thing when he is looking up or climbing up toward top of his enclosure, when its a day or 2 within feeding day.. That is the only time I have ever seen it.. He feeds like a champ,no issues.. Poops and sheds just like any normals I have had. You know what, I dont care. I love him for what he is and his weirdo cork screw moments are few. No wobble or anything any other time. Some day, I will breed him.

This conversation was amusing to read. I think there are alot of people who have made some good points..and some that I cannot get behind in anyway.

I think its important to educate yourself and make decisions you are comfortable with if you choose to work w any snake whose genetics have been shown to have a defect of some sort. Its a personal choice. A personal choice. Remember that. So to belittle others for their interest in a gene or be so obstinant to not see the other side of it or at least not be willing to accept we all have different opinions on this and move on is crazy. This is really a rediculous subject to see so much contention over. Dont we have bigger problems in our world/country to solve than argue over a stupid gene?

Take a deep breathe, walk away from the keyboard. And remember, theres more going on than the internet and this sillyness.

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Just wanted to add, breeding spiders or not is such a non-issue compared to the question of "Why do people keep breeding pugs?" as a single random example. That dog breed actually has a multitude of health issues that interfere with their quality of life, especially later in life, eye problems that if not treated continuously with eyedrops and medications can lead to blindness, etc. Especially when compared to many other dog breeds. So why don't we all go jump on that question, instead? (Joking)

My point is, spiders thrive just as well as other morphs besides being a bit wobbly, and there is no illness or decrease in quality of life to anyone's observation for so many decades. You can speculate for the rest of eternity whether the spiders pity themselves for their wobbly movement, you can speculate for eternity what "really" goes on in that tiny little ball python brain of theirs, but that's really it. Physically, the average wobble simply doesn't affect their ability to thrive just the same as other what we consider "normal" morphs.

And as mentioned, breeding morphs in itself isn't even "normal" either. So what now? Let's just go back to living in caves and being hunter-gatherers. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Dave Green

I've produced many spiders and spider combos over the years, easily 100+ and I've never seen one corkscrew nor have I had to cull one. Some seem to have no wobble at all even though they all eventually have the head tilt which I consider a mild wobble. I've only had one customer complain about the wobble but he owed me some money so we called it even. I think the wobble concern is overblown but if you don't want to own or breed them that's fine.

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I'm not sold on the head tilt, I bet 20% of my collection has shown a head tilt at some point. I do have a spider female which I have never seen any "wobble behavior" from. It's not like I am watching her 24/7 though and I got her as a sub adult so I don't know how she was as a baby. I'm not blind to the fact that she has the potential to wobble, put her in a stressful environment and I bet it will come out of her. I prefer to avoid testing that though, but if there was a candidate for no wobble spider, it's her. As for her offspring, they wobble like most spiders do.

As for the culling, when I wrote the link posted above, I reached out pretty far and only found 1 person who claimed to have to cull a spider due to the wobble. He was a hobby breeder with very little experience, so I'm not confident measures were taken to try to reduce the wobble or do anything to help it thrive. Besides that, most stories were a friend's brother's uncle who know somebody who had to cull spiders, who know the same people who have desert females that lay perfectly good eggs without issue. :)

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Originally Posted by Jeanne

This is really a rediculous subject to see so much contention over. Dont we have bigger problems in our world/country to solve than argue over a stupid gene?

Take a deep breathe, walk away from the keyboard. And remember, theres more going on than the internet and this sillyness.

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Debate is healthy imo and if you feel there is an ethical issue at hand, it is hardly silly. Without this debate how many people might think culling spider is normal? How many people learned about issues with other morphs? Even if no one's position on the issue changed, information was shared. Just because people have a different view doesn't make it ridiculous. I understand completely why someone might choose not to work with spiders. There's far more shallow reasons why I won't work with some morphs, I mean doesn't everyone think sable just ruins every combo aesthetically? Won't see me working with sable :)

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Originally Posted by Deborah

They ALL DO to a degree if you know what to look for it can be mild and hardly noticeable but they ALL DO, anyone saying any different, is either not paying attention, not knowing what to look for, or using this as a sales tactic and lying.

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I've had her a few years now, if she has any wobble it's so mild that it isn't noticeable. She does prefer to eat her rats ass first, that's the only weird thing I've ever noticed about her. I know the wobble can show up at any time, so I know one day she could go all "screwy" on me.

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Originally Posted by tat2d1

Not all spiders exhibit "weird behaviors " either. My spider girl has no wobble, and so far none of her spider gene offspring have shown any issues either.

Your statements would almost be like telling someone with a disability that they shouldn't have kids because they might be "defective". I have a daughter with Muscular Dystrophy, she's FAR from "defective"!

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I don't breed spiders for money, I keep and breed them because honestly I think they are unique and make amazing combos! I'ld bet if everyone on the forum posted photos of their companion animals (dogs/cats), there would be many breeds that are "defective"- but that doesn't mean they aren't well loved and cared for!

We all know that annoying wobble but it is what makes the Spider Gene. The wobble gives justice to the reason why it is called a morph. Morphs are definitely an alteration of genetics, be it phenotypical or genotypical. Let's turn the table around and say why the heck do people keep breeding albinos. Aren't they prone to harmful UV rays? Easier to spot making it vurnerable to live in the wild yet breeders produce them? It is because they are not in the wild anymore. Aside from that, it is morph, an addition to a collection. People will definitely love spiders just like the ol'albino gene. It has these amazing marks and varying results when combined to BEL Complexes, Stripe Complexes etc. I WILL ALWAYS WANT A SPIDER IN MY COLLECTION.

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

The majority's reason being that the genetic defect associated with spiders doesn't interfere with their ability to eat and thrive as a normal snake, at least in a captive environment as pets. It just gives them a lopsided motion when they're moving about or they rest in funny positions.

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Funny you should mention that they rest in odd positions - we've only had Yzma for 2 months and this is her second shed. I peeked in to check on her and I freaked out thinking she was dead! Her head was completely sideways resting on her coils!! I reached in and gave her a tickle, and apparently she was just sleeping. It was like a person sleeping on their side on a pillow!!

She doesn't have enough much of a wobble, but I think it's adorable when she does it. I've never seen a corkscrew though....

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Originally Posted by redshepherd

The majority's reason being that the genetic defect associated with spiders doesn't interfere with their ability to eat and thrive as a normal snake, at least in a captive environment as pets. It just gives them a lopsided motion when they're moving about or they rest in funny positions.

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This ^^.

Spiders do amazing things to some morphs.

As red said, perhaps you consider it a defect, but it's just part of a snake that makes them special. They can still live a full and healthy life as a pet.

I think this is an interesting question. I have a spider (well a queenspin), and she is stunning. i took her in on a trade knowing she was tweaked, and trust me, she is tweaked. But, she still slams medium rats and still acts otherwise normal. Therefore the bigger picture is, is this condition, lowering the quality of life of that animal. If not, it may simply be seen as a "phenotypic" condition, and one that we choose to either like or dislike, just as we choose to like or dislike morphs. I was chatting to a friend about this very topic earlier in relation to breeding. I plan to pair my queenspin next season. The difference with me however is that I have absolutely no worries about euthanizing an animal that shows and extreme "spider" condition. If a friend wanted one as a pet, I may give that animal away, but I would not sell it. I may, in time, set up an experiment comparing age and sexed matched animals with and without the tweaking, to see how growth rate, feeding, and reproduction is effected. Might be a nice long term undergraduate research project in my lab. The other interesting thing is that it may relate to a condition comparable to humans, and therefore ball pythons with it may act as model organisms to study its effects and treatments. Think bigger picture.

Warren

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Originally Posted by Warren_Booth

The difference with me however is that I have absolutely no worries about euthanizing an animal that shows and extreme "spider" condition.

Warren

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What do you consider an "extreme spider condition"?


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