How many snakes in a cage?

I'm new here but I thought I should join in on this for just a few comments. I'm no expert by any means, but there's a few things I'd like to point out. It seems that we're all forgetting that our snakes are not "wild". They are not kept in a wild environment... most have never known what being "wild" means. Yes, we should still respect them as wild animals because they can be unpredictable as such (but, honestly, so can humans).


What I'm trying to say is that, in the wild, ball pythons are solitary. But in the wild, BPs have to be opportunistic hunters... a big fat rat doesn't walk by their hide out every Monday at 8:00 PM. They can't just pull out a white farm bred mouse out of the freezer and dw-thaw it for themselves. They take whatever they can get.

In the wild, BPs don't have a nice warm mat under their tank to keep them at a solid 90 degrees all day long. There are days when their body temps don't reach 90 degrees. Living life as a wild BP is nothing like the lives our BPs live.

My point is, in the wild BPs may have to live a solitary life. Food is found only through their own means, and prime basking spots have to be sought out. Here in our world, these things are plentiful and given readily. Maybe the are solitary in the wild, but here in our world, with everything given to them, perhaps it's possible that they can live together.

I'm no scientist. I don't know. Personally, I keep my balls in separate tanks. But I suppose it's possible to keep them together... because they aren't "wild" and they have us to take care of them.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

What I'm trying to say is that, in the wild, ball pythons are solitary. But in the wild, BPs have to be opportunistic hunters... a big fat rat doesn't walk by their hide out every Monday at 8:00 PM. They can't just pull out a white farm bred mouse out of the freezer and dw-thaw it for themselves. They take whatever they can get.

In the wild, BPs don't have a nice warm mat under their tank to keep them at a solid 90 degrees all day long. There are days when their body temps don't reach 90 degrees. Living life as a wild BP is nothing like the lives our BPs live.

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The problem is, pythons are NOT domesticated animals. What that means, is they still have the natural instincts of a hunter in the wild. Whether there food is provided regularly or not, they will instinctively fight for it. The same goes for living. They will instinctively fight (even if the "fighting" is to subtle for humans to notice) for the ideal spot in their enviornment.

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Here in our world, these things are plentiful and given readily. Maybe the are solitary in the wild, but here in our world, with everything given to them, perhaps it's possible that they can live together.

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The problem is, they don't understand the concept of regularity or plentiful food. A dog or a cat does... they are completely domesticated animals. They rely on human beings for nearly everything, and wouldn't last on their own (in most cases). Whereas, I could put my snakes outside, right now, and their natural hunters instinct would go into effect immediately.

The biggest thing to understand, is that snakes, ALL snakes are in fact wild animals. They are still wild animals when we own them, they are simply wild animals in cages. Survival is their primary instinct, and they will do anything to survive, and at the extreme, even eat each other if they feel it's neccesary.

I'd like to point out, it's not impossible by any means, to cage snakes together. Many people do just that. However, from what we know, it does cause undue stress on the animals and that's not neccesary.

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I'm new here but I thought I should join in on this for just a few comments. I'm no expert by any means, but there's a few things I'd like to point out. It seems that we're all forgetting that our snakes are not "wild". They are not kept in a wild environment... most have never known what being "wild" means. Yes, we should still respect them as wild animals because they can be unpredictable as such (but, honestly, so can humans).


What I'm trying to say is that, in the wild, ball pythons are solitary. But in the wild, BPs have to be opportunistic hunters... a big fat rat doesn't walk by their hide out every Monday at 8:00 PM. They can't just pull out a white farm bred mouse out of the freezer and dw-thaw it for themselves. They take whatever they can get.

In the wild, BPs don't have a nice warm mat under their tank to keep them at a solid 90 degrees all day long. There are days when their body temps don't reach 90 degrees. Living life as a wild BP is nothing like the lives our BPs live.

My point is, in the wild BPs may have to live a solitary life. Food is found only through their own means, and prime basking spots have to be sought out. Here in our world, these things are plentiful and given readily. Maybe the are solitary in the wild, but here in our world, with everything given to them, perhaps it's possible that they can live together.

I'm no scientist. I don't know. Personally, I keep my balls in separate tanks. But I suppose it's possible to keep them together... because they aren't "wild" and they have us to take care of them.

Just my opinion.

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You're right, captivity isn't "the wild" ... but, ball pythons are not domesticated animals by any means ... many of them have never known "the wild" but they are ALL programmed with tens of thousands of years of instinct that is based on living in a wild habitat. It took mankind many lifetimes to break dogs of their natural "wild" instincts so that they could be trained and molded as hunters, workers, and companions .... ball pythons have only been kept in captivity in any signifigant numbers for less than 20 years.

Thousands of years of evolved instinctual dominant animal behavior isn't something that can be undone by taking a snake and placing it a tank with a heat pad and regular meals.

:D:D

-adam

I think my cat would last longer on the streets of Ohio that my snakes would. :)

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Originally Posted by ladywhipple02

I think my cat would last longer on the streets of Ohio that my snakes would. :)

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Huh?

-adam

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Originally Posted by jhall1468

The problem is, they don't understand the concept of regularity or plentiful food. A dog or a cat does... they are completely domesticated animals. They rely on human beings for nearly everything, and wouldn't last on their own (in most cases). Whereas, I could put my snakes outside, right now, and their natural hunters instinct would go into effect immediately.

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I think he was refering to that Adam.

Non of us here will ever see a Domesticated snake in our life time. whiles Bps have been kept in private collections for around 20 years, thats a very small percentage of people who go back that far most only go back the last 10 years or so. It takes many generations to domesticate any type of animal and while BPs are being bread every year their are still many many more that are being imported and sold as "CBB" I keep 6 BPs 4 are true CBB (saw the eggs myself) and 2 where imported babies. My true CBBs go back 2 generations in captivity, now once I bread them to my imported Bps the cycle would have to start all over again since all the "wild" instincts would be very much intact in the imported BP. Sooner or later the importing of BPs will come to a stop but for now we will continue to add fresh blood to the lines and we will never be taking steps forward to domestic breading. I would say better than half the people on the forum alone have imported Bps that were sold to them as CBBs.

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Originally Posted by Python-77

My true CBBs go back 2 generations in captivity, now once I bread them to my imported Bps the cycle would have to start all over again since all the "wild" instincts would be very much intact in the imported BP.

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The "wild" instincts are very much intact in your CB ball pythons, they are just conditioned to the routine of captivity. 2 generations CB is insignificant in the grand scheme of domestication.

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Originally Posted by Python-77

Sooner or later the importing of BPs will come to a stop

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Actually, the way things are currently going, that's not likely.

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Originally Posted by Python-77

I would say better than half the people on the forum alone have imported Bps that were sold to them as CBBs.

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By all estimates with importation numbers being what they are and captive breeding being very limited comparably, it's more like 9 out of 10 that are actually CH imports or WC adults/sub-adults.

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

The "wild" instincts are very much intact in your CB ball pythons, they are just conditioned to the routine of captivity. 2 generations CB is insignificant in the grand scheme of domestication.

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Oh understand that I was just making a reference that any progress made was just set right back to the start.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Actually, the way things are currently going, that's not likely.

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Well sooner or later CITIES will step in but the problem is that Bps are in more than one country.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

By all estimates with importation numbers being what they are and captive breeding being very limited comparably, it's more like 9 out of 10 that are actually CH imports or WC adults/sub-adults.
-adam

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Very true the store I deal with imports about 200+ a year, but he sells them as CH and explains to people what that means. He also provides awsome care to the prior to selling them they all eat atleast 2 meals Dead so some have eaten upto 6 times.

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Originally Posted by Python-77

Well sooner or later CITIES will step in but the problem is that Bps are in more than one country.

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P. regius is already a CITES II regulated species. According to the latest CITES population surveys of Western Africa, ball python numbers are thriving. There has actually been talk of increasing exportation numbers because of the huge population increases in balls in West Africa over the last several years.

I don't understand what being from more than one country has to do with anything?

-adam