Quality of breeding stock

Ohhhh too many evil inappropriate jokes here...

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

1.0 male Rob proven breeder powerhouse

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Oh I'm sure I've got a big ol' girl I could pair him with.... how much??

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

I have seen the word "Quality" used on this forum since I started lurking here. It cracks me up because all "Quality" means on this site is pretty, prettier, and prettiest. Nothing more. When you hear the word "Quality" used in other consumer references it means many things like better materials, tighter tolerances, longer performance, faster speeds, etc. Is there one breeder here who can say and back up with evidence, that their snakes eat better, live longer, lay more eggs, slither faster, use more efficiently the caloric intake of the rats consumed? No! In fact there are many of you who raise and breed animals with a known neurological disorder and talk about the "Quality" of your Bees, Spiders, etc. What they mean when they say "Quality", is they have a pretty example of a particular morph and likely have used good husbandry practices producing it.

That in mind, "Pretty" is pretty subjective. What you are supposed to look for in a quality pastel, is what the first people in the hobby decided was, in their opinion, a quality pastel and have now imposed as truth on those that followed. It is no different then what Vogue tells you is beautiful. And if Vogue were to use the same logic being applied to this thread, then heavy women and people who don't have good symmetry in their facial structure, are low quality humans and should only be regarded as "Pet Quality" and never be bred. Too bad as Stephen Hawking would be low quality.

Just my 0.02.

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http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8097/8...d33895d59c.jpg

Yeah.. I'm gonna go tell all my girl ball pythons that what REALLY matters is what's inside that counts and how they feel about themselves. In this discussion, quality is directly tied to aesthetic value. It's already been discussed that quality is determined by market. Ridiculous comparison.

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Originally Posted by nimblykimbly

Oh I'm sure I've got a big ol' girl I could pair him with.... how much??

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That is one lock I do not need pics of!

Hi guys, I'm a newbie here, and a newbie to ball pythons, although I've been lurking around for years... I feel I have something to chime in here though, as I'm a geneticist, specialising in animal genetics and animal improvement. I agree with the general idea of this thread, buying my snakes I went to well known breeders partly to avoid pewter/sterling dilemmas, partly to know the bloodlines I'd be working with. All you've said is true, that is until rlditmars' post. I don't know if he magically edited it or if you read a different post to me, but I absolutely don't see why you laugh him up. He talks about one sided view on the word "quality". As been said before, everyone has a different idea of a "good quality" look on a morph. However, he points out that in animal breeding there is more to the value of it, than just the looks! That's what is causing so many problems in dog breeding...
I bought my snakes with an intention of breeding them. Obviously, I want them to look as good as possible. But, like rlditmars, the look of the snake in question will be just a fraction of my breeding decisions. I would much rather take an average looking female that is feeding well, and is a good breeder, than a splendidly looking female that would have to be force fed all the time and would take 3 breeding seasons to lay 3 eggs, out of which 2 would be slugs. With the first female you can work with, with the second... well, you can admire her.

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Originally Posted by nykea

Hi guys, I'm a newbie here, and a newbie to ball pythons, although I've been lurking around for years... I feel I have something to chime in here though, as I'm a geneticist, specialising in animal genetics and animal improvement. I agree with the general idea of this thread, buying my snakes I went to well known breeders partly to avoid pewter/sterling dilemmas, partly to know the bloodlines I'd be working with. All you've said is true, that is until rlditmars' post. I don't know if he magically edited it or if you read a different post to me, but I absolutely don't see why you laugh him up. He talks about one sided view on the word "quality". As been said before, everyone has a different idea of a "good quality" look on a morph. However, he points out that in animal breeding there is more to the value of it, than just the looks! That's what is causing so many problems in dog breeding...
I bought my snakes with an intention of breeding them. Obviously, I want them to look as good as possible. But, like rlditmars, the look of the snake in question will be just a fraction of my breeding decisions. I would much rather take an average looking female that is feeding well, and is a good breeder, than a splendidly looking female that would have to be force fed all the time and would take 3 breeding seasons to lay 3 eggs, out of which 2 would be slugs. With the first female you can work with, with the second... well, you can admire her.

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You make a good point

I think the claim that we only line breed for looks is not accurate. Over time, breeders also refine things like clutch size.

This brings back the point made earlier about really looking at the Normals that you use in your projects. If you have Normal female that is a monster egg layer, it is not a bad idea to get her genetics into what you are working on. But, she still helps if she is a nice looking Normal, or at least carries visual traits that you are looking to integrate into your project.

But back to the bigger point. Fly by night breeders who are just putting together whatever animals are not looking to improve ANY of this. They are looking to make a quick buck and do not care if they are producing sub-par animals.


While discussing this topic over on the BLBC, a good point came up that some folks like the ones that may not be considered optimal examples. The example of using a browned out Pastel as a dark morph enhancer. I see the point here, and if someone wants to breed a line with a specific trait for a specific purpose, then bravo.

Once again, the folks I am complaining about are not thinking on this level. it is all about a quick $$$$$.

There are 2 sort of reasons why to breed animals. They're based on conformation or performance. Usually breeding for performance are working lines of animals. For example, race horses or dogs who herd.

But if you look at show animals. Any show animal(live stock, dogs, cats, rats, ferrets, etc etc) its based on body and look.
Ball pythons do not fall into the breeding for performance category.
Ball pythons are not selected for their ability to 'slither faster'. Perhaps that can be a plus trait, but not the reason people breed them. They are bred mainly for their looks and general health. I repeat, general health. We all want healthy animals. But as long as an animal is not suffering or is able to thrive and live a quality life, there is no reason to stop breeding certain morphs.

I personally don't like spider morphs due to their wobble and base look. I will never breed the spider gene. However, they live and thrive fine. Most can live a quality life just as well as the next snake. The original spider from Africa had a wobble. Clearly, it wasn't selected against yet..... Just a thought.

If you want the 'best performance' get a WC volta. Those girls get huge. I think Outback Reptiles just mentioned a female laying 15+ eggs. Most girls average at 7-10. Seems to me, they have the best fitness. Although they are poor eaters in captivity most of the time.

If you want a 'defect free' snake, breed normals. All morphs are genetic defects after all.

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Originally Posted by nykea

I would much rather take an average looking female that is feeding well, and is a good breeder, than a splendidly looking female that would have to be force fed all the time and would take 3 breeding seasons to lay 3 eggs, out of which 2 would be slugs. With the first female you can work with, with the second... well, you can admire her.

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If that is the case, I wouldn't breed either. Neither are good candidates.

If the second snake was that much of a problem, she probably would have died on her own or should be culled from a young age. That is not a good quality life if she can't thrive on her own. Especially as an adult.

The goal of breeding bps is for looks and general health. I wouldn't breed that average girl either then if she's muddy looking for example. Unless you're just breeding pet quality animals that shouldn't be bred in the future, breeding average and below is what is destroying the look of base morphs.


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the whole talk about how we dont really breed BPs for performance (that they slither faster) and only take care that they eat well and breed well and are overall healthy got me thinking....

and i think we could actually breed green tree pythons to performance. a healthy green tree python without neuro issues can climb a smooth vertical metal pole with elegance. And most gyms have these. We could have green tree python climbing competitions :D What do you think?

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Originally Posted by Breaking Balls

I'm going to constantly try to improve what I have and what I'm working with to produce the best representations I can for my own holdbacks and any future customers. I have a lot of thought into all my animals and what I was specifically looking for when I bought them. I try to take all of my future projects goals into account. I believe that breeding high quality animals and producing the same will not only help differentiate myself from everyone else but lead to the advancement of whatever morphs I'm working with. That's my idealistic goal anyhow and the standard I try to hold myself accountable to.

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There are lots of great points in this thread. Ultimately it means finding a breeder or breeders to do business with that actually sticks to that ideal instead of preaching about it and doing something completely different. How many people sell an animal that produced ugly babies? There is tons of responsibility in breeding animals. That responsibility rides within the person making the decisions. That is why it is important to stick to someone that makes good decisions.

I also agree with the point that many of the best animals DO NOT reach open market. They are held back for breeder upgrades or sold to close friends and acquaintances. I've witnessed this, participated in this (on both ends), and seen it happen on countless occasions. Let's face it, the stuff on the market has already been picked through before you ever see a shot of any of these animals.

We live in the Walmart generation where price overrides quality and service. I can not count how many times I've read a thread that started with the premise of finding an animal really cheap. There is a right and a wrong way to negotiate for animals. I always pick the animal and then negotiate a price. The honest truth is that I usually pay quite a bit under market (and many times less than a poor example of a morph) for a top notch example! People just have things so backwards with the "Got to collect them all" mentality. This mentality then extends to "Got to breed them all" and things really take a turn for the worse.

Overall this is a great thread and discussion with lots of interesting points being made. Thanks for starting this jinx!

Regards,

B