Put it down already

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this.... Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?

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I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this.... Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?

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Mike, another name for the Super Cinny/Black Pastel is the 8 Ball.

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Originally Posted by briz

I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.

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See Above.

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Originally Posted by Mike Cavanaugh

Another fine example of what this thread is all about. Not sure who said it but someone mentioned that natural selection is thrown out the window when snakes are intentionally bred. Your right... in the scheme of things it is not the snakes fault it's deformed.... it's the breeders fault. Exactly why it is the breeders responsibility to handle the problem they created.

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Actually, it's not always the breeder's fault. Random mutations occur with some frequency; it doesn't have to be something passed down from one or both parents. It could just be that a particular baby lost the gene mutation lottery.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

I think there's two things being discussed.
Culling and Mercy killing.
I will always agree with putting an animal down as a mercy.
Culling for perfection I disagree with. In other words, if a pastel isn't bright enough, or a albino isn't crisp enough, putting the baby in the freezer I think is wrong.
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I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby for that reason anyway thats just absurd:weirdface.

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Hmmm, not a snake but related.

I've been breeding rats on a small scale for years and gearing up for the last several months. I have a very standard policy which I will explain in a moment.

I can reach into any tub of rats I have bare handed, pull pinks, move fuzzies, remove adult by the body or tail and NEVER get bit.

I don't get bit because of my policy.

IF a rat bites me, it is then food. If it is a mother, her babies are food. Same for a male, bite-food.

Knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I had a rat bite me.

I have heard many tales of rats that bite from people who don't cull the biters.

It bears thought.

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I'll happily admit to being a touch dense. I think I understand your point, however.

If we cull anything that has a deformity, then ideally we'll end up with stock with no deformities at all (or in the case of rats, no nippy buggers). So basically a zero tolerance policy. I like it, too - I was fully intending on following something similar when I began breeding rats.

How do you adapt the same policy to snakes though?
Hopefully deformed males and females would never be bred to begin with. So if they throw one defective baby, do you kill otherwise perfectly healthy adults? Do you cull the entire clutch? What if it only showed up in a second or third clutch - do you then go after the other babies and destroy them too? Where's the line drawn?

For rats specifically (and I hope this isnt too far off topic) - if a male bites you, do you then destroy ANY babies sired by him? Or only if the mother does? Do you only cull the litters if you're bitten by the mother while they're still pinks / fuzzies? What if they're adults already, and have never shown themselves as aggressive / defensive biters? (wee, can't tell I'm horrendously ignorant about this, can you?)

I think my problem is intention, silly as that sounds. It makes sense to follow such a policy with rats, as they're meant for food for my snakes. I do not want to deal with food that bites / has defects. These snakes, however, are meant to be pets. As much as I hate to contribute to future deformed babies, I would not be willing to go to such extreme lengths with my pets as I would with my pet's food. There goes my rights to the "animal lover" title, right? :rolleyes:

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I apologize if I come off that way - I find this topic fascinating and would like to learn as much as possible.

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Originally Posted by kyote19

I don't know who in their right mind would cull a perfectly healthy baby for that reason anyway thats just absurd:weirdface.

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Dog and cat breeders have been known to do this for generations. Drowning a perfectly healthy puppy because the coloring isn't proper, etc. While I don't personally know of a breeder that does it to ball pythons, it's equally possible, since I doubt they'd talk about it. But I brought it up becuase it's a practice in other species, even though those are more appealing cuddley fuzzy pets(to most public people).

What seems absurb to you might seem to be just plain quality control to them.

wow.....I never thought that this was true. Disgusting if it is.

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Originally Posted by wolfy-hound

Dog and cat breeders have been known to do this for generations. Drowning a perfectly healthy puppy because the coloring isn't proper, etc. While I don't personally know of a breeder that does it to ball pythons, it's equally possible, since I doubt they'd talk about it. But I brought it up becuase it's a practice in other species, even though those are more appealing cuddley fuzzy pets(to most public people).

What seems absurb to you might seem to be just plain quality control to them.

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Originally Posted by briz

I think they were referring to the cinny x black pastel cross and not 8Ball Pythons.

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LOL! thank you for the clarification on that!!!!! My apologies Kelly! :)

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Originally Posted by Eventide

Actually, it's not always the breeder's fault. Random mutations occur with some frequency; it doesn't have to be something passed down from one or both parents. It could just be that a particular baby lost the gene mutation lottery.

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If you are breeding snakes... you know, choosing who breeds with who and actually forcing them together so they will breed.... it is safe to say that you are the one that created the baby. You get credit for that baby when it is the coolest new morph ever... you also get credit when it is a total trainwreck that needs to be put down.

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Originally Posted by fishmommy

wow.....I never thought that this was true. Disgusting if it is.

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Oh yeah! Absolutely true. Especially mismarked poodles(ones that were parti-colored, despite it being the original color for poodles), mismarked boxers, white patched dobermans.. there used to be practically a list of pups that would be put down at birth if they were mismarked, because it was such a black mark against the sire/dam that they threw mismarked dogs.

Same with kittens, mismarked, or not close enough to show perfection, and they'd put them down.

Old school mentality was drown it at birth if it wasn't what you wanted. Unfortunately, it still holds true today, to a lesser and more hidden degree.

Sorry I took it a little off topic.

[QUOTE=wolfy-hound;1144621]Oh yeah! Absolutely true. Especially mismarked poodles(ones that were parti-colored, despite it being the original color for poodles), mismarked boxers, white patched dobermans.. there used to be practically a list of pups that would be put down at birth if they were mismarked, because it was such a black mark against the sire/dam that they threw mismarked dogs.

Same with kittens, mismarked, or not close enough to show perfection, and they'd put them down.

Old school mentality was drown it at birth if it wasn't what you wanted. Unfortunately, it still holds true today, to a lesser and more hidden degree.


australian shepards can be born all white deqaf and blind. A breeder thr3ew one out in the snow at my friends house instead of being responsible with it so i got her now her 5 years was amnazing but still seriously olets be responsible here (does that relate)