I think my snake loves me

I can not believe I am adding to this thread. Ok I don't believe that love is a complex emotion. I have a hard time with the idea that animals have instinct and humans have emotions. Humans have instinct just like any other animal. If aliens were to describe us they could describe all of what we do as instinct driven. Now before anyone comes back with crap about poetry and song writing you should know that all of that is crap as well. Male peacocks have giant tails that they show to females to attract them. They do little dances with there tail out. They either attract a mate or a predator. All of the stupid complicated stuff we do is to get food, find a mate, protect our young or some other base instinct. Now if you have all those things covered then you do some random crap sure. Look at male wolfs that are not part of a pack. They run around and play and do dumb things unrelated to instinct as well. Emotions are nothing special they are just complicated instincts. The problem is that people refuse to accept that very complicated things can come out of emotions. Look at ants. These are some of the simplest of creatures and yet look what they can do with a hand full of nerve cells bunched together. Snakes have memory and instinct and out of that complicated actions emerge. Love is what we call a specific instinctive reaction to something. So if you want to say your snake loves you I am fine with that but keep in mind that its not the same love you feel. Dogs don't even feel the same kind of love that we feel. Their version of love is a mix of respect, fear and comfort. If you don't think so then chances are your dog is the pack leader of your family, I weep for you.

Humans don't have instincts. Look up the definition of instinct. We have many behaviors and drives that very closely resemble animal instincts, but when looking at the criteria of instincts, nothing humans do, in the entire species on the planet, can be labeled as an instinct.

So you keep your hand on a hot stove when you accidently lean on it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Humans don't have instincts. Look up the definition of instinct. We have many behaviors and drives that very closely resemble animal instincts, but when looking at the criteria of instincts, nothing humans do, in the entire species on the planet, can be labeled as an instinct.

---

Humans are animals, too. We have lots of instincts - protect self and family, procreate, etc. I agree with Venom.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

I can not believe I am adding to this thread. Ok I don't believe that love is a complex emotion. I have a hard time with the idea that animals have instinct and humans have emotions. Humans have instinct just like any other animal. If aliens were to describe us they could describe all of what we do as instinct driven. Now before anyone comes back with crap about poetry and song writing you should know that all of that is crap as well. Male peacocks have giant tails that they show to females to attract them. They do little dances with there tail out. They either attract a mate or a predator. All of the stupid complicated stuff we do is to get food, find a mate, protect our young or some other base instinct. Now if you have all those things covered then you do some random crap sure. Look at male wolfs that are not part of a pack. They run around and play and do dumb things unrelated to instinct as well. Emotions are nothing special they are just complicated instincts. The problem is that people refuse to accept that very complicated things can come out of emotions. Look at ants. These are some of the simplest of creatures and yet look what they can do with a hand full of nerve cells bunched together. Snakes have memory and instinct and out of that complicated actions emerge. Love is what we call a specific instinctive reaction to something. So if you want to say your snake loves you I am fine with that but keep in mind that its not the same love you feel. Dogs don't even feel the same kind of love that we feel. Their version of love is a mix of respect, fear and comfort. If you don't think so then chances are your dog is the pack leader of your family, I weep for you.

---

You had me until there. Male wolves that are not part of a pack "play and horse around" because they're testing the waters with each other. Play combat leads to real combat, and one day, the strongest of the male pack will challenge the Alpha of another pack with females. In the end, that play fighting is part of a greater instinct to find a pack to take over and procreate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melicious

You had me until there. Male wolves that are not part of a pack "play and horse around" because they're testing the waters with each other. Play combat leads to real combat, and one day, the strongest of the male pack will challenge the Alpha of another pack with females. In the end, that play fighting is part of a greater instinct to find a pack to take over and procreate.

---

HAHAAH
That's freaking funny how he said hey play around and do dumb stuff.

This is almost like the debate had by philosophers over mind body dualism. If the mind and brain are one, then in fact snakes might not be able to feel emotion. however if emotion is more than just a serious of corresponding neurological reactions to stimuli, then we can never really know.

just my two cents.

TF

I guess we just need to teach our snakes to talk. Then they can answer the question themselves.

I KNOW that my bp loves me. She lays her head on my hands, gives me kisses and I feel the love. You can't convince me otherwise, sorry. And I love her back. She's as loving as any dog or cat I've ever had.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _Venom_

So you keep your hand on a hot stove when you accidently lean on it?

---

It's called a reflex. ;) Don't confuse that with instinct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

Humans are animals, too. We have lots of instincts - protect self and family, procreate, etc. I agree with Venom.

---

Look up the definition for instinct, which I feel is very thorough. Protecting ones self is not labelled an instinct, considering many people can easily over come this drive*hint*, look at the multitudes of people that hurt themselves daily on purpose or their family.

Procreating is also considered a drive.

Again, look up the definitions and classifications of instinct. These are terms that are taught in grade school all the way up to college. Well, at least I was... :rolleyes:

It can also be called instinct.
It's debatable.

Who's to say that snakes are not sentient beings? I've heard many people say that snakes feel fear, or they feel safe, or they feel stress. Why not feel love then? Some are saying that they may have feelings but not complex enough to be called love. Yet no one can even seem to agree on an absolute definition of love. Everyones individual life experiences of love are different so our definitions of love will be slightly different. At the very least you can say that no one can read a snakes mind so it seems kind of ridiculous to say that they "absolutely" can or can not love. I don't know if my snake loves me but he seems comfortable around. My question is this; 'Why is it so offensive to some that others think their snakes may love them.'?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 8Ball

Who's to say that snakes are not sentient beings?

---

You may be confusing sentience with sapience.

Sentience is the ability to feel or perceive subjectively. (note: feel or preceive does not mean emotion)

Sapience is the ability of an organism or entity to act with appropriate judgment.

They sound similar, but they are very different.

Sentience. If I go near that animal, it will eat me.

Sapience, if I go near that animal it will try to eat me, it will go for my thoat first, so I have to protect that. I can pick up that heavy stick and use it as a club. Then hit it over the head until it stops moving, and then I can eat it.

Additionally. Emotions are nothing more than chemical impulses in the brain. We have them, some other animals have them, snakes do not. Their brains are not capable of replicating these chemical impulses.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _Venom_

It can also be called instinct.
It's debatable.

---

Where could it be debated?:confused:

Have you taken my advice to look up instinct, and also reflex to see how they relate (or don't) to each other?

Yeah, I did.
I also looked up "do humans have instinct" and it was debatable as I said.

Reflex and instinct definitions share parts of each other too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

...look at the multitudes of people that hurt themselves daily on purpose or their family.

---

Those people do that due to psychological imbalances - therefore are not the norm.

To me, drive = instinct. People over come their drives because they are rational beings, not because they don't have instincts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by _Venom_

Yeah, I did.
I also looked up "do humans have instinct" and it was debatable as I said.

Reflex and instinct definitions share parts of each other too.

---

Are we debating if humans have instinct? Because there are facts to support that they do, not many, but they are there. Humans eat and reproduce naturally, even if they had little human contact, what would you call that?
Survival instincts. ;]

In psychology, we learned that instincts and reflexes are both natural and begin at birth. However, reflexes are only reactions to some type of action. Instincts are actions in themselves without having an action to feed or naturally cause them. :gj:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MelissaFlipski

To me, drive = instinct. People over come their drives because they are rational beings, not because they don't have instincts.

---

Please explain to me why a man would jump on a grenade to save his buddies when he has a wife and child waiting for him at home then. Drive in the human equation does not equal instinct.

Additionally, given the answer you give, how does this relate to snakes being sapient or having emotions? Will a snake give itself so another snake of another bloodline can return to care for their young?

I feel just because an animal (any animal even a snake) is not human it does not mean they do have feelings. Do your cats and dogs love you? if any animal can feel they all can.
But trying to give human traits to an animal gets complicated. (after all it is we that do not know what we are, we are animals)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JamieC

I feel just because an animal (any animal even a snake) is not human it does not mean they do have feelings. Do your cats and dogs love you? if any animal can feel they all can.
But trying to give human traits to an animal gets complicated. (after all it is we that do not know what we are, we are animals)

---

Not exactly. They, like other pack animals, know that a strong bond between pack members means that they are safer. By following your commands, if you are a strong leader, that the pack will maintain its stability. Dogs and cats do produce some similar chemical impulses to humans, though they are a more primitive form. Snakes do not.

One of the largest problems we have as humans is trying to anthropomorphize our pets and end up treating them like they are humans. This often ends up bad. A dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, and a snake is a snake. Though, dogs and cats have been domesticated for a very long time, and it is only common sense to know that an animal that has been domesticated for near fifteen thousand years will end up picking up some of the basic character traits of their masters. But this still does not mean that dogs are humans. Nor should they be treated as such.

Your dog does not want or need a friend, they need a strong leader, same as a cat. Snakes want neither. They only want food and a way to pass on their DNA.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Typical_08

Not exactly. They, like other pack animals, know that a strong bond between pack members means that they are safer. By following your commands, if you are a strong leader, that the pack will maintain its stability. Dogs and cats do produce some similar chemical impulses to humans, though they are a more primitive form. Snakes do not.

One of the largest problems we have as humans is trying to anthropomorphize our pets and end up treating them like they are humans. This often ends up bad. A dog is a dog, a cat is a cat, and a snake is a snake. Though, dogs and cats have been domesticated for a very long time, and it is only common sense to know that an animal that has been domesticated for near fifteen thousand years will end up picking up some of the basic character traits of their masters. But this still does not mean that dogs are humans. Nor should they be treated as such.

Your dog does not want or need a friend, they need a strong leader, same as a cat. Snakes want neither. They only want food and a way to pass on their DNA.

---

Very well said. I agree 100%! :gj:

Hasn't what Typical said been said a dozen times in this thread?

Probably, and I think I said it twice. But few people take the time to read thirty plus pages of responses and opinions.

My JCP always comes to me when he gets out of his cage, instead of my sisters or anybody else.

At least he shows that he remembers me.

its amazing that people think their snake(s) loves them. love doesnt exist, only acception and toleration. "love" is an abstract thought and action. do i "love" my wife? i accept her and tolerate her, therefore i am comfortable with her. snakes tolerate and accept us. snakes base their acceptance and tolerance on comfortability with a place or object. my big tiger retic is comfortable with accepting and tolerating anything, anybody, anytime. my albino tiger only is accepts and tolerates me. i can handle him, but he has bitten 4 other people that have tried to handle him. my yellowhead that i used to have only tolerated and accepted my wife never bit her, but bit me several times. a snake in the wild also acts this way. there was a documentary on the discovery channel i watched, that filmed a reticulated python in its natural state. it would not venture more than 4 square miles around where it was used to. and it had one tree that it always coiled by and under when resting or digesting food. it picked up something on that particular tree it accepted and tolerated, feeling comfortable with that tree. it never went to another tree or bush for security and/or comfort. obviously it went to other trees and bushes and what have you, but when it had just consumed a meal, or was shedding or just resting, it always retreated back to that same tree. it was a documentary spanning a 6 month research on this python

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Melicious

You had me until there. Male wolves that are not part of a pack "play and horse around" because they're testing the waters with each other. Play combat leads to real combat, and one day, the strongest of the male pack will challenge the Alpha of another pack with females. In the end, that play fighting is part of a greater instinct to find a pack to take over and procreate.

---

Man its funny how a species that's smarter than a wolf can ascribe all of the male wolves actions to a greater instinct. I wonder if a species smarter than man could ascribe all the complex things humans do to a greater instinct. No that's crazy we are after all humans.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Typical_08

Please explain to me why a man would jump on a grenade to save his buddies when he has a wife and child waiting for him at home then. Drive in the human equation does not equal instinct.

---

So we meet again Typical_08, I am going to go with "To protect his family." No I am not nor have I been in the military but I have many family members who have and I have discussed this very topic with a psych professor or three. A man would jump on a grenade, and not every man mind you, to protect his buddies when he has been conditioned to believe those buddies are his family and he has been removed from his family for an extended period of time. Societies entire purpose is to override the instincts we have that do not better the group and bolster the ones that do. The military does the same thing in its training to a greater degree.

Quote:

---

Additionally, given the answer you give, how does this relate to snakes being sapient or having emotions? Will a snake give itself so another snake of another bloodline can return to care for their young?

---

Again I am with you on this one. Snakes just don't have the parts of the brain for this kinda thing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Egapal

So we meet again Typical_08, I am going to go with "To protect his family." No I am not nor have I been in the military but I have many family members who have and I have discussed this very topic with a psych professor or three. A man would jump on a grenade, and not every man mind you, to protect his buddies when he has been conditioned to believe those buddies are his family and he has been removed from his family for an extended period of time. Societies entire purpose is to override the instincts we have that do not better the group and bolster the ones that do. The military does the same thing in its training to a greater degree.

---

I would agree. It has nothing to do with instinct. But it has more to do than just them being family. I don't know if I can accuratly explain it.

Quote:

---

Again I am with you on this one. Snakes just don't have the parts of the brain for this kinda thing.

---

Thank you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by tigerretic76

its amazing that people think their snake(s) loves them. love doesnt exist, only acception and toleration. "love" is an abstract thought and action. do i "love" my wife? i accept her and tolerate her, therefore i am comfortable with her. snakes tolerate and accept us. snakes base their acceptance and tolerance on comfortability with a place or object. my big tiger retic is comfortable with accepting and tolerating anything, anybody, anytime. my albino tiger only is accepts and tolerates me. i can handle him, but he has bitten 4 other people that have tried to handle him. my yellowhead that i used to have only tolerated and accepted my wife never bit her, but bit me several times. a snake in the wild also acts this way. there was a documentary on the discovery channel i watched, that filmed a reticulated python in its natural state. it would not venture more than 4 square miles around where it was used to. and it had one tree that it always coiled by and under when resting or digesting food. it picked up something on that particular tree it accepted and tolerated, feeling comfortable with that tree. it never went to another tree or bush for security and/or comfort. obviously it went to other trees and bushes and what have you, but when it had just consumed a meal, or was shedding or just resting, it always retreated back to that same tree. it was a documentary spanning a 6 month research on this python

---

Love is a human emotion that is shown as a significant amount of care towards one person over many others. Your stating an opinion like it is a fact. Love is a real word with a real definition, and exists as a meaning.
You could tolerate and be comfortable with tons of people, that's what makes your wife different.

If I was just 'tolerated', I wouldn't tolerate that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

that's what makes your wife different.

---

I think he is talking about Helen Fisher's theory on mammalian mating drive. She uses the word tolerate to describe the temporary bond between solitary mammals that stay with the mate until after the young is born. I do not believe that she uses this word to describe love in the human response.

what i am meaning is that there is infinite number of ways to show "love" and to "interpret" love. therefore love is an abstract emotion, thought or action. thats exactly my point, what makes my wife, or my parents or my best friend or joe smith off the street different. i accept and tolerate each person for who they are, what they represent and offer me.

Just because there are many ways to show love does not mean that those acts are indicative of love. For instance. When I see my girlfriend has been working on a paper for her grad program for 3 hours an has no drink in front of her I will go to the kitchen and get her a bottle of water. That act is based on my love and affection. A cop can interrogate a witness for only so long before they are legally obligated to provide water. Not out of love. You may interpret your snakes actions as love but the question is what are your snakes motivations. Now I hate to admit this but I did some research on reptilian brains and I have to say that I am going to change my answer to support a very very loose interpretation of the word love. I still believe that love is a complex emotions that requires parts of the brain that snakes don't have but, they do have a limbic system and some would argue that the basics of emotions come from the limbic system. So sure your snake has snake love for you. Snake love is nothing like human love though.

well, i guess to each his/her own on the opinions and thoughts on the crazy emotion called, "love"

Love is a complex emotion in the brain. It requires chemical impulses and neurons firing as well as physical responses to stimulation. Love comes from a specific portion of the brain.

Snakes physically lack the portion of the brain that controls emotion, thus they cannot feel any sort of attachment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by blackcrystal22

Are we debating if humans have instinct? Because there are facts to support that they do, not many, but they are there. Humans eat and reproduce naturally, even if they had little human contact, what would you call that?
Survival instincts. ;]

In psychology, we learned that instincts and reflexes are both natural and begin at birth. However, reflexes are only reactions to some type of action. Instincts are actions in themselves without having an action to feed or naturally cause them. :gj:

---

In psychology, you were taught wrong. Humans have drives, behaviors, reflexes, but not instincts, and there are facts to support it. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

In psychology, you were taught wrong. Humans have drives, behaviors, reflexes, but not instincts, and there are facts to support it. ;)

---

Why would people not have instincts? Sorry, I'm not educated on this matter, but it does seem really interesting and it always seemed obvious people did have instincts.. after all, we're still mammals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by snakey68

:O I am just gobsmacked 4 people think their snake loves them :O

---

I cannot believe these people.:O:O:O WOW! I believe snakes have emotions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DutchHerp

Why would people not have instincts? Sorry, I'm not educated on this matter, but it does seem really interesting and it always seemed obvious people did have instincts.. after all, we're still mammals.

---

I want to know this too...:weirdface

Are emotions not instincts?
We do not learn them.

When native americans, europeans, asians, etc. had not met each other they all stilled smiled, cried, tried to get away etc. with no one teaching them how to. All ages do the same too....

Snakes do not feel love. I do feel that they have emotions to some degree, but none so complex as love, hate, ect.

can anyone define difference between loving someone and like someone? Is it like "3xlike=love"?

I did alot of studying and researching into this matter, and i've talked to alot of people well qualified in this field.

Yes - Snakes do lack the part of the brain that shows affection, but some handicapped people also lack that same part of the brain, and are still able to show affection.

Meaning - People/Animals learn from interactions, what to trust/not trust. Look at it from everybodys point of view before you down them. Snakes learn to trust you overtime through periodic handling, and showing them that you will cause no harm to them, So why can't they learn to show affection in their "own" way?

Yes - I believe snakes don't show "affection" as you would call it, but they have senses that can sense fear, aswell as other emotions, that is evident, so in theory when you're upset or at the bottom of the rope. Yes, I do believe snakes sense somethings wrong, and in their "own" way show a bit of affection. Alot of what people call affection they just see something their snake does, and trys to match it with affection.

Off subject - That's like dogs for instance, literally they cannot show affection. But wait how can that be? My dog rubs his nose on me, paws always wanting to be pet, that's not actually affection, its your dog being dominate, space is gold in the dog world. Now I do believe dogs can learn just as well as some other animals, they have several reported stories of when a Pet owner dies, his animal died a few days/weeks later, or if you have 2 animals that are close to each other, when 1 dies, the other one follows. Animals learn just like we humans do, but alot of what we percieve to be affection isnt.

My dog rubs his nose on me, paws always wanting to be pet, that's not actually affection, its your dog being dominate[/quote]

Not exactly. It depends on what the rest of their body is doing during the action.

Showing dominance is not just one singular act. In one case pawing can actually be showing subservience, but the same action with a slightly different body posture can be dominance.

How come I never see any new posts????
All I see is Typical's post where he talks about his dog.

Hi,

When people vote in the poll at the top of these threads the forum software treats it exactly the same as it would a new post and bumps the thread to the top of the list.

There doesn't seem to be any way of stopping it AFAIK. :rolleyes:


dr del

I think snakes are not capable of "love" the way humans like to imagine it.

But, I think all animals are inherently self serving (including humans) and that's okay! It's the secret to a well trained dog for sure... (ie, dogs do what works in their worlds to get what they want). I am a big time dog nut... and dominance is definitely NOT what dogs are all about. It's but a small aspect of their complex personalities.

At any rate, I think snakes can certainly experience fear, pleasure, and other basic feelings. I have ten of them, and they have personalities- or if you can't deal with that term, they each have their own special quirks and preferences. Some climb, some do not. Some hide, some prefer to soak. Some are active and curious, some are lazy and chill. One is aggressive, the rest are not.

I'm not positive they recognize us, though I would think it is possible, since we have a unique scent.

I voted no, but I don't think snakes are completely, literally mindless.

Even my fish have personality quirks and are "trained" and come to the top when they see me as opposed to my DH because I feed them. Love? No. But still proof they have brains and deserve compassion and care.

I sometimes wonder if humans are actually capable of "love" or if love even excist.. seems like make believe to me. I know what it feels like to like someone ALOT.

I'm on the fence about this. I think that some BPs learn to enjoy being taken out of the enclosure and handled by people who treat them well and don't hurt them. I think that BPs can definitely remember individual people. I think that if a someone (a child, maybe) who has handled the snake roughly in the past tries to handle the snake again, the snake will remember and try to get away. Also, I think that with someone (i.e. the snake's primary owner) who has handled the snake on a regular basis, supports its body, doesn't move quickly, and has never hurt the snake, the snake will be much more relaxed.



In short, I don't think that snakes can "bond" with people, but they can learn to enjoy being with people whom they trust (people who treat them well). Anyways, instead of saying all that, I just tell people that my snakes love me. :D (Thinking about pissy-pants Sangre loving anything makes me laugh :8: )

Quote:

---

I know my snake doesn't care. It does not feel emotions

---

I do not agree with this. I don't think that snakes can "bond", but I do believe they can feel emotions. As I said above, trust is an emotion. I think that my snakes would *care* if I died, not because they would miss me, but because they would much rather be handled by me, who they trust, than by anybody else.

It actually upsets me that anyone with live animals would think they have literally NO EMOTIONS AT ALL (fear, contentment, the state of being annoyed- those *are* emotions, and recognizing that your animals experience at least those basic emotions does not mean you think your snakes love you).

Those aren't emotions.
Just reaction to stimuli