Caramel Female on Eggs??? Photo???

I think the most eye opening part about this post is finding out how many "reputable" breeders ripped people off.

Think about it. In the beginning no one knew, so I could see how the mistake began... but how it continued is sheerly by greed!

By this point... They all know... Shame on them for continuing to do this. The word should have been out well before now. I wonder how many "breeder" sized females they've let go over the years... and at what cost.

I could totally be jumping the gun, but it sounds like there is substantial evidence here to prove that caramels are horrible at laying fertile eggs.

Russ I do agree about the eggshells. I'm just trying to think of something to tie the kinking and the sub-fertility together ...

I remember the vitamin C hypothesis ... The main issue I have with that is, again, that we don't see any ancillary signs of vitamin C deficiency (scurvy) in adult or subadult caramels. Animals with scurvy typically show weakness, pain in the joints and spontaneous bleeding. Bone deformities can definitely be seen in affected animals, particularly fetuses, but I would expect to see other signs as well.

So, I don't know. The other problem is that het caramel females can throw kinked babies, and if the problem with an inability of the mother to synthesize ascorbic acid -- or to absorb or synthesize some other necessary nutrient -- I'd expect the problem only to be seen in the offspring of caramel females.

Passion's Pythons, I really don't know what to think regarding breeder disclosure of this problem. I feel like I've seen an awful lot of adult female caramels for sale lately (not a one with mention of fertility, except for one that claimed to be a proven 8-9 egg breeder) ... I don't know if that's coincidence or not.

I mean, caramel females are certainly not the only animals in the world to slug out. In a big breeder facility with 1000's of animals, probably there are dozens of females of all morphs slugging out every year. I would imagine that if you weren't looking for a pattern, it would be easy to overlook a few caramel females giving slugs, especially if there were a few that were also giving some good eggs with the bad. ... And if a breeder did happen to have one or two that didn't consistently slug out, and gave good solid clutches every year, that might be enough to make him deny the rumor entirely (even if every else's data suggests otherwise).

But I dunno ... I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt. :rolleyes: Who knows. There do seem to be plenty of "reptile secrets" out there. (As with ANY animal industry :rage: )