Is there a Morph you will never own/breed due to genetics?

I agree that selective breeding and outcrossing can go a long way, and I think that if every breeder had the integrety that breeders like Ralph have, we might not need to have these conversations so often.

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Originally Posted by LadyOhh

I want to make it clear that I wasn't trying to belittle the discussion about Spinning in Spiders. EVERYONE has an opinion on it, to be sure.

I was just more curious about what traits you would not breed for DUE TO the genetic issues (which you may or may not consider an issue, depending on the trait)

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Due to genetic issues, then it would only be spiders that I wouldn't work with in the future. I did have a really nice male breeder spider at one point and produced 1.1 spiders from him. Shortly after my male bred with two nice females at about 6mos. of age I traded him for an exceptional juvie male chondro. When I had him he only displayed a mild tremor at feeding time, 5-7 months after I did the trade it became a different story. The shop owner accused me of trading him a spider BP that had IBD, because the severe cases do infact resemble the symptoms of IBD. I then had to explain the wobble issue to him as best I was aware of it at that time and told him I would trade back the chondro. Since the spider was feeding and breeding like a machine, he was happy to keep him because like many others he wanted to make bees. Two and a half years later, the shop owner still jokes about how tweaked out that spider is, and since he is in a display cage the spiders behavior is even more obvious and comical.

To those that profess their spiders are perfectly normal, then I challenge you to put them in display cage for a month and observe them at night. I feel confident many people would then change their tune.

Honestly I think the male spider I traded had a worse neuro issue than I originally thought, but being couped up in a tub and only observing him in limited periods plus my limited knowledge of the issue, I thought mine was a good one. This is my reason for not wanting to work with the spider morph ever again.

There are morphs that I don't like the looks of them, however spiders are the only ones that turn me off because of genetic issues.

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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I'm with you on this one Freakie!!

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/d...piderTwins.jpg

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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It is not about bashing spiders..... just giving opinions that are backed by seasoned breeders observations and our own experiences. That is what Heather asked for, and the fact that spiders seem to be the most discussed in this thread shows that it is not just some wild conspiracy theory of one breeder out to get another breeder. There is a high percentage of neuro problems with spiders PERIOD!!! Sorry Freakie, but putting your head in the sand doesn't make it any less valid.

As for keeping all your spider babies, well if you want to cool, but I don't think you will have any trouble selling them. Despite their drawbacks they are extremely popular especially with newbs.

Do you plan on being up front about the issue with potential customers? What will you do if someone comes back a couple months later and starts asking why his/her spider is tweaking out? If you don't have good answers to those questions, then the ethical thing to do would be to hang onto them. From your posts you seem like a responsible type of person and I have a feeling you will feel as bad as I did when it eventually happens to you.

I am not trying to rant about this to make anyone fell bad about their projects. I just feel strongly about this issue and I am not a timid person when it comes to voicing my opinion on this subject. That being said opinions are opinions, nothing more - nothing less.

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It is not about bashing spiders..... just giving opinions that are backed by seasoned breeders observations and our own experiences. That is what Heather asked for, and the fact that spiders seem to be the most discussed in this thread shows that it is not just some wild conspiracy theory of one breeder out to get another breeder. There is a high percentage of neuro problems with spiders PERIOD!!! Sorry Freakie, but putting your head in the sand doesn't make it any less valid.

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That's kind of a stretch I just said that for the people that didn't want to work with them that fine by me I'm more than happy to keep working with them. As for the opions offerd and back by seasoned breeders. I respect that but I also know that you wont call any "Seasoned" breed right now and have them tell you they aren't working with spiders. If its not a problem for them its not for me.

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here is a high percentage of neuro problems with spiders PERIOD!!!

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I never said there wasn't. I simply said I love them

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As for keeping all your spider babies, well if you want to cool, but I don't think you will have any trouble selling them. Despite their drawbacks they are extremely popular especially with newbs.

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I plan to sale mine. Despite the "drawbacks" they are popular period both with seasoned and newb's

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Do you plan on being up front about the issue with potential customers?

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100%

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What will you do if someone comes back a couple months later and starts asking why his/her spider is tweaking out?

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I guess I'll have to cross that bridge when I when I get there. But I don't think it'll be a problem after all hundreds of breeders sale hundreds of spiders every year with little to no problems

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If you don't have good answers to those questions, then the ethical thing to do would be to hang onto them.

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No the ethical thing to do would be for the customer to research the pet they wish to keep. Now again lets face it spiders aren't Wal-Mart Beta fish. So I figure if your dropping 300-450 on a specific morph ball python you've done your homework

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From your posts you seem like a responsible type of person and I have a feeling you will feel as bad as I did when it eventually happens to you.

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Feel bad. I don't think I'll feel bad I think I'll be frustrated at the lack of preparedness on the customers end.

Now lets be fair a little tweaked is one thing a Train Wreck is another. I couldn't in good peace of mind let go of a train wreck to a customer. But the "Tweaked" factor is a spider trait love it or hate it its in there. Like the issues with large breed dogs and their hips you either read up on the pet or you learn as you go.

Many members here preach about putting the animal first, and thinking about the wellbeing of the animal over money and personal desires. Then the same members breed a morph of BP with known genetic issues. I know most spiders live a perfectly normal life, but the fact is people breed them for personal or financial reasons and pretty much overlook the wobble/spin issues they have. To me, that isn't putting the animal first. I am not trying to stand on a pedestal, because a spider is one of my most desired morphs, and I will own and hopefully breed them some day. But I'm willing to admit that if/when I do breed spiders it will be more my interests in play than the wellbeing of the animal. I knowingly accept that spiders will have issues, but accept it for my own benefit. I may get flamed for saying that, but anyone breeding spiders is doing the same thing.

Am I wrong? Is it possible to continue to breed a morph with known genetic issues, and still claim to be putting the animals interests first?

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Originally Posted by simplechamp

Many members here preach about putting the animal first, and thinking about the wellbeing of the animal over money and personal desires. Then the same members breed a morph of BP with known genetic issues. I know most spiders live a perfectly normal life, but the fact is people breed them for personal or financial reasons and pretty much overlook the wobble/spin issues they have. To me, that isn't putting the animal first.

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When I talk about putting the animal first it means I have the animals best interests in mind. If I feel that an animal is to far gone to thrive and be a Ball Python on it on then the best thing to do is to put the animal down rather than let it suffer. Not putting the animal first would be buying a snake you can't feed or house or take to the vet. If you could predict when a spider would be tweaked that would be great but you can't so you have to produce the tweaked one to get to the non-tweaked there's nothing harmful about the slightly tweaked spiders. Train Wrecks maybe another story but that a different thread.

Many people own tweaked spiders that Eat, sleep, drink,crawl around, poop, pee, shed, bite, and breed. Sounds like every other Ball python I own.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

If you could predict when a spider would be tweaked that would be great but you can't so you have to produce the tweaked one to get to the non-tweaked there's nothing harmful about the slightly tweaked spiders. Train Wrecks maybe another story but that a different thread.

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I guess I don't see how you think continuing to breed a line with genetic defects, that is more likely to be a train wreck than other morphs, is putting the animal first. Sure, trainwrecks could happen with any morph, it's a fact of nature. But it's known that spiders are much more likely to have these issues, and they are still bred. Like I said before, I'm not being high and mighty, because I want to own and breed spiders too. But I think claiming to still be putting the animals interests 100% first in this situation is not true. KNOWING that they are more likely to trainwreck and still breeding them is because of personal reasons, not for the snake. Putting the animal first is in regard to ALL aspects, including breeding.

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Well for everyone poop pooing spiders I'm more than willing to have rack after rack after rack fo spider and their combos spinning or not. I just hatched 8 spiders and there is no greater thrill for me that to open those tubs and see those little hotties in there.

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I'm with you 100%.:gj: