Derma balls

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Originally Posted by nchapa

Just like the tasmanian devil, they were dying off with some sort of cancer at an alarming rate, and therefore they evolved and started breeding at a younger age. I believe they were breeding at 3 to 4 years before and now they are breeding succesfully at a year or less. This ladies and gentleman is evolution.

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Yes, that's probably a good example of evolution. The ones who were able to breed early were the ones who were able to pass their genes most effectively, and now more of the ones you can see are doing it.

Evolution is the weeding out of failed genetics through selection. It's a never-ending cycle of genetic bottle necks and re-distributions, mutations and lucky breaks -- or missed chances.

Unfortunately for the derma-ball, his mutation isn't likely to put him in any kind of advantageous position in a wild population. Honestly it's more likely that he'd be at a disadvantage and quickly be removed from the gene pool. If there, say, were a fatal disease that started going around in balls that was like... necrosis of the heat pits or something, this python *might* gain an advantage and start changing the face of the species forever by out-competing for resources and breeding opportunities (which would be an example of evolution).

You seem to think that evolution is like climate change - it happens to everyone equally at the same time, which is not really the case at all. The ones who are unfit die off, and the ones who are fit survive to reproduce. A very long series of successfully advantageous mutations are responsible for the great variety of every living thing you see on the earth today.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Cats and rats are mammals

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your point?

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Originally Posted by nchapa

his ladies and gentleman is evolution.

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Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.

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According to the scientific definition of what is evolution, that is not evolution.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

your point?

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though hairless mammals do have their problems, I cannot agree that it is the same situation as a Derma ball. One rat bite and this thing is a gonner,and also because it is scaless, how do we know what temps to put it at?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

though hairless mammals do have their problems, I cannot agree that it is the same situation as a Derma ball. One rat bite and this thing is a gonner,and also because it is scaless, how do we know what temps to put it at?

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rats... get rat bites all the time. The hairless ones are somewhat more fragile (it's recommended that you not put hairless rats in a metal cage, for example) - which is a situation homologous to the derma ball. It's a somewhat more fragile version of the wild type.

Also i don't find that rats have any real trouble puncturing even scaled snakes when given the chance... so i don't know why necessarily a rat bite = "gonner" for a scale-less one.

Just because the snake is scaleless doesn't mean it's not still ectothermic. You'd still put the temp at normal BP temps.

I feel that you're making a few stretches here to say that the situations are different to any large extent. :/

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

though hairless mammals do have their problems, I cannot agree that it is the same situation as a Derma ball. One rat bite and this thing is a gonner,and also because it is scaless, how do we know what temps to put it at?

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This would be a situation where the benefits of feeding pre-killed would far outweigh any benefits of feeding live. I would think you would also keep it at your standard temperatures -- and just like any other ball, it would thermo-regulate itself. While it is likely that it could burn itself much easier due to the lack of scales, I would think that unless you have a thermostat malfunction it wouldn't be something to worry about.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it can live and function properly just like any other snake. It's not like its missing it's eyes or has a kinked spine. The scaleless corns and rats that I've seen don't seem to have any health problems, and you gotta admit -- the lack of scales really makes those colors POP.

In the end it comes down to what every morph/mutation does -- personal preference. Some people might like it, some might not. As we've seen in a recent thread, some people are VERY much against something as little as the spider wobble. While others have no problems with breeding caramels that might come out kinked. Like it or hate it, noone is going to force you to buy it or breed for it.

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Originally Posted by Morphie

rats... get rat bites all the time. Also i don't find that rats have any real trouble puncturing even scaled snakes when given the chance... so i don't know why necessarily a rat bite = "gonner" for a scale-less one.

Just because the snake is scaleless doesn't mean it's not still ectothermic. You'd still put the temp at normal BP temps.

I feel that your arguments are... lacking :/

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That is because I am not Arguing, this thing isnt even genetic so it does not even matter! your waisting you time trying to prove anything. Do you think that if a rat bit a scaleless one it would not go deeper than one with scales? I have around 4 scaleless(LMAO EDIT! hairless:P) rats and one I have had since july, still no marks on any of them. Why would you want a less than perfect bp? Because you think its pretty?:rolleyes: You can do what you want but you will not see one in my collection should one ever prove out.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

This would be a situation where the benefits of feeding pre-killed would far outweigh any benefits of feeding live. I would think you would also keep it at your standard temperatures -- and just like any other ball, it would thermo-regulate itself. While it is likely that it could burn itself much easier due to the lack of scales, I would think that unless you have a thermostat malfunction it wouldn't be something to worry about.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong with it as long as it can live and function properly just like any other snake. It's not like its missing it's eyes or has a kinked spine. The scaleless corns and rats that I've seen don't seem to have any health problems, and you gotta admit -- the lack of scales really makes those colors POP.

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The only problem with that is while most will take p/k or f/t, alot do not. About half of my snakes will only eat live. Im not fully saying that it could not live a normal life, im saying why would you want to encourage breeding a snake that could have complications?

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

The only problem with that is while most will take p/k or f/t, alot do not. About half of my snakes will only eat live. Im not fully saying that it could not live a normal life, im saying why would you want to encourage breeding a snake that could have complications?

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Do you plan on breeding your bee?

As far as eating live, I'm of the opinion that any snake can be conditioned to eat p/k or f/t if started at a young age and continued through out their life. I also have about half of my collection of balls that will only eat live, but most of them took f/t easily at a young age. It wasn't until after I started regularly feeding them live that they started to refuse f/t.

Yes I do, and my spider:) No wobbles or spins here. Even if there was, it is a different situation than a scaleless ball.

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Originally Posted by Beardedragon

Yes I do, and my spider:) No wobbles or spins here. Even if there was, it is a different situation than a scaleless ball.

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Spiders that don't wobble can still produce spiders that do. ;) I would consider a severe case of spinning that makes it difficult for the animal to eat a much more serious situation than a lack of scales. Like I said before though, it really all comes down to personal preference. While I'm not real big on the patches of scales here and there, I do think that scaleless corns are pretty hot.

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Originally Posted by m00kfu

Spiders that don't wobble can still produce spiders that do. ;) I would consider a severe case of spinning that makes it difficult for the animal to eat a much more serious situation than a lack of scales. Like I said before though, it really all comes down to personal preference. While I'm not real big on the patches of scales here and there, I do think that scaleless corns are pretty hot.

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How many wobbling/spinning spiders have you produced from non wobbling/spinning parents? It is also true that when a spider is mixed the wobble/ spin is Diluted, and seeing that I will not produce any normal spiders that are already coming from a non wobbling/spinning stock I do not see a problem. You cant do that with Dermas... either its scaleless or its not

I really am done with this thread, like I said before, none of us will ever get the chance to own a ng derma ball so I do not see any point in wasting my time posting about it.