I tried keeping them separated

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by spix14

And I suppose this top breeder, with his thousand plus snakes, keeps them all in large, naturalistic enclousures?

That must be one monster of a breeding facility he has.

---

He uses tubs of course... again, I am NOT saying BPs in small enclosures are unhappy at all! All I say is that big enclosures don't hurt and that they make sense if maintained well :)

Im with Markus 110% here... If you have the ability to give your snake more room while still meeting requirements you should do so. Im sure everyone on here gets sad when they go to the dog pound and see dogs stuck in cages... Going off the information found throughout this thread why do you feel bad? They have food... they have water... they could breed... the animals are happy right? Far from the truth... I know someone will chime in and say a dog isnt a snake but my question is why does it matter? Just bc it can live, eat, grow, breed in a small tub doesnt make it the best possible living conditions. I will keep all my adult females in a 4x2x1.5ft cage... when I no longer have room for these will I then move to racks? Naw ill stop buying/breeding snakes!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

So, following that train of thought, could we not say that a BP in a tub with his hide that knows the simple pattern that on Saturday night a rat will walk by his hide?

So why should that snake leave? When the rats quit coming... or he wants to breed.

It very possible to say that BP's in the wild only move when they need to find a new colony of rats/gerbils, and in the meantime do not move very far at all from their hide.

---

Please check pages 6 & 7 on this document: http://www.stevegorzulapresents.com/...thon_ghana.pdf

Hunters often find BP hides by looking for trails leading into holes, and entries that are 'smooth'... that implies that snakes do move around at night a lot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JoshJP7

Im with Markus 110% here... If you have the ability to give your snake more room while still meeting requirements you should do so. Im sure everyone on here gets sad when they go to the dog pound and see dogs stuck in cages... Going off the information found throughout this thread why do you feel bad? They have food... they have water... they could breed... the animals are happy right? Far from the truth... I know someone will chime in and say a dog isnt a snake but my question is why does it matter? Just bc it can live, eat, grow, breed in a small tub doesnt make it the best possible living conditions. I will keep all my adult females in a 4x2x1.5ft cage... when I no longer have room for these will I then move to racks? Naw ill stop buying/breeding snakes!

---

And you know why those dogs are separated and on concrete?? Because most, if not all, aren't vaccinated and have internal parasites. In order to keep diseases from passing, concrete is used as it is easy to sterilize with a high heat pressure washer. Puppies are carriers of Parvo, and when whole litters of puppies are in the shelter, and one across the way has Parvo or Distemper, how do you expect the caretakers to sterilize the area if the animals are kept in open fields of grass or dirt? It's not possible. One shelter in our area has proven that, as they keep their animals in large fenced in areas of grass/dirt and have a MASSIVE problem with disease and internal parasites. I prefer clean and sanitary myself..

But anywho! Good luck with that!

You obviously didnt get what I was trying to say with my dog example.

Let's make peace here... I am 100% sure we all love our animals, and we do the best we can to keep them happy :) And some discussion doesn't hurt, does it?

Why does it seem that certain people like to pipe up and tell a new keeper who doesn't have much experience or research under their belt that they can do something which without *tons* of attention, effort, care and knowledge, they are able to/can/should do the complete opposite of what is recommended and proven on the large scale.... THEN the thread ends up becoming arguing back and forth between tons of members and those one or two members who just feel the need to point out that there *can* be other ways of doing things....

SO lets just put it this way, just because you've put in the time and effort or research to learn that there are deviations from the 'norm' doesn't mean that those deviations work for everyone. The people who can successfully deviate due to extensive knowledge and effort are *not* the ones coming to an online reptile community asking questions and having problems with care and *THEREFORE* members doing this shouldn't be advising that they can or should deviate from proven husbandry methods.

Most people coming here for help are advised to move to tubs, properly set up two hides and water, and accurite temps and humidity... Why? Because they've never owned snakes before, tubs are proven to be the simplest way to provide the snake with basic needs, ensure they're eating and healthy and 'happy'. These aren't the sorts of people who should be advised to go out and keep a 55-90 gal tank, which will be very tough for someone new to the hobby to maintain proper temps and humidity in, which, if not set up meticulously will make the snake feel insecure, and which, without extensive research into normal snake pathology and behaviour and constant supervision should never be told they can house two together.

So what, it works for you. You feel that you have the years of experience, research and ability to do this. That's fine, but someone who has never kept snakes before, isn't already fully aware of husbandry and reptile behaviours, and is asking for help because their current husbandry is not working *is not you* and *it does not/is not working for them* which is exactly why they are being advised to move away from all these deviations in the first place.

I think comparing the needs of a pack animal like a dog has nothing to do with the enclosure we provide a snake. Dogs do show emotion (whimpering, yelping, whining, body language). Dogs also have a basic need to exercise; these are all things that govern a dogs mental and physical happiness. I don't see many snakes coming down with anxiety or separation issues because they are kept in a small tub or don't get enough exercise. I will happily be that person to chime in saying they're not the same...because they're NOT the same.

3 days ago I moved one of my snakes from a 30qt container to a 15qt. This snake had been fasting since October and last night he ate for me within 15 seconds of offering food. He's in a rack so the temp/conditions haven't changed. Wouldn't this be proof on the benefits of a smaller enclosure or did I just so happen to get lucky?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GirDance

Why does it seem that certain people like to pipe up and tell a new keeper who doesn't have much experience or research under their belt that they can do something which without *tons* of attention, effort, care and knowledge, they are able to/can/should do the complete opposite of what is recommended and proven on the large scale.... THEN the thread ends up becoming arguing back and forth between tons of members and those one or two members who just feel the need to point out that there *can* be other ways of doing things....

SO lets just put it this way, just because you've put in the time and effort or research to learn that there are deviations from the 'norm' doesn't mean that those deviations work for everyone. The people who can successfully deviate due to extensive knowledge and effort are *not* the ones coming to an online reptile community asking questions and having problems with care and *THEREFORE* members doing this shouldn't be advising that they can or should deviate from proven husbandry methods.

Most people coming here for help are advised to move to tubs, properly set up two hides and water, and accurite temps and humidity... Why? Because they've never owned snakes before, tubs are proven to be the simplest way to provide the snake with basic needs, ensure they're eating and healthy and 'happy'. These aren't the sorts of people who should be advised to go out and keep a 55-90 gal tank, which will be very tough for someone new to the hobby to maintain proper temps and humidity in, which, if not set up meticulously will make the snake feel insecure, and which, without extensive research into normal snake pathology and behaviour and constant supervision should never be told they can house two together.

So what, it works for you. You feel that you have the years of experience, research and ability to do this. That's fine, but someone who has never kept snakes before, isn't already fully aware of husbandry and reptile behaviours, and is asking for help because their current husbandry is not working *is not you* and *it does not/is not working for them* which is exactly why they are being advised to move away from all these deviations in the first place.

---

No one said to move away from tubs... or did I miss this? Tubs are easy to maintain, clean etc... and the snakes do their thing properly in there as well. Does that mean that a big tank that is maintained properly by an experienced keeper is worse? No, of course not. Is it worse for an inexperienced keeper? Yes, of course it is. So I am with you basically, but again, I do not believe one bit that a BP does feel uncomfortable in a well maintained big tank with plenty of hides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jseber1982

Ok about 2 months ago i separated my BPs as you all told me to do.

They were born together in the same clutch.

I heard that sometimes snakes can fast and not eat for a long time. I separated them into identical 20 gallon tanks. Both of them pretty much completely stopped being active and did not want to eat anything. They seemed to go days at a time without hardly moving.

I put them back together and within a week they both are eating and active again.

I noticed that when they are in here, they are always together and wrapped up together on a little ball.

When i hold them they always go by each other and hang out.

It isnt just one that does it, they each go to each other.

Does it seem like it is ok to keep them together? I know everyone says it is cruel to keep them together, but after watching them they seem happier i think.

---

Just a few questions for you... When you had them each in their own 20G tanks, what were their temperatures and humidity? What were you using as a substrate and heat source, and what did you have set up for hides?

In the larger enclosure, same questions.

What you are perceiving as 'happiness' for your snakes is not typical snake behaviour, but signs of stress and dominance. Ball Pythons typically spend all of their time hiding, they are nocturnal, and in the wild spend the majority of their time within rat burrows and termite mounds. In captivity they are not typically active animals, and the consistent use of their hides and thermo-regulation are signs of good husbandry.

Curling up together is either 1. breeding, or 2. competition for the best place in the enclosure, not that they enjoy one another's company. They are not mammals, and they do not behave like mammals when healthy and 'happy'. This is the reason why everyone has advised they should be separated, they are showing signs of competition and dominance and stress.

If while in their separate enclosures they were not eating for you, the husbandry itself being off is the most likely cause, not that they 'missed' one another or felt lack of companionship.