Feeding live mice and rats is dangerous... Wives tale?

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Originally Posted by firehop

Well once again you cant read!!! But hey its ok to post 57 times and call other people liars that you have never met or even conversed with. Everyone has an opinion. I am curious how many animals you really have and for how long. No need in replying though IN MY OPINION I am too old to give a crap about your opinion any longer than I have. You go on and continue to make judgements about people from behind your computer. Have a great day.

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agreed:gj:

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

I'm not sure what I've ever done to give you the impression that the information I share on this message board is less than accurate, but I say what I mean and mean what I say.



Well ... thank you ... I think.



Maybe they would be for you, but not for me ... my animals are my life ... each one is closely inspected each week for all sorts of potential health problems and a rodent related injury would be noticed immediately.

I'm not trying to "convince" anyone that live feeding is SAFE ... only that it can be done safely, and that's only because that is a feat that I've managed to accomplished on a large scale for a long time.

I've extended the invite before for anyone that wishes to come to my shop on feeding day and feed 700+ ball pythons live to see how many get bit ... it still stands.

-adam

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HAHA. Ok, Adam, I'll say unequivocably that I don't think you're lying at all. And, if you keep that close an eye on all those snakes then that's great and I believe you. I only called the "nary a bite or scratch" into question because it suggests that a rodent never even gets a chance. In the feedings I've witnessed a strike to the rear of the rodent gives it a small window of time to do something. Occasionally, it has the presence of mind to actually twist back and try to bite. No doubt, nearly every time I've seen this the retaliation is totally ineffective and is met by even more squeezing force. So, we'll rule ineffective bites/scratches out of the conversation.

I read your safe-feeding list and I have some things to add and/or question:

* Prey size definately has a huge impact. My carpet sustained several nasty rat bites when I was feeding him large rats. I switched to feeding him mediums and so far I have not noticed any new injuries. I make up for the change in size by occasionally feeding multple rats.

* I'm still debating the value of leaving everything in the cage. I can understand the value of leaving the snake's home undisturbed but I have noticed that poor strikes are more common when there are obstacles in the "kill-zone". My BP's eye scratch was from a small mouse that he took butt-first from around a corner. Because he had to pull the mouse back to get it to a point where he could constrict, it had more than average reaction time. The mouse used this time to double back and bite at my BP's face and eye.

My theory on this subject is that people with tubs tend to have simple cage layouts and perhaps overlook the effect of furniture in a decorative enclosure. In general, I think its easy for anybody giving advice to unknowingly assume that the snake's environment is the same as theirs.

* Does BP advice apply to bigger snakes? I'm leaning towards "no" on this. I think its true that a snake should always be able to overpower a smaller prey item. But, I don't think its true that it can prevent the rodent from retaliating 100% of the time. This is where the other part comes in: how well armored is the snake? I have not found it to be true that larger snakes are always proportionately more armored. Case in point: my 6' carpet has big, thick scales while my 10' olive has thin, fine scales even smaller than my BP. There is no doubt in my mind that the jumbo rats she eats could chew through her skin like paper (if they were live that is).


Cheers!

True that. I had a Burmese python that I had to feed large rats to. I fed him live at the time... he struck, and as he opened his mouth for the death blow, so did the rat, and the rat bit through the top of his head into his mouth. Yes, a hold from the head to the mouth.

I read everyone's responses, and there is a third option that I haven't heard anyone mention yet. There is F/T, there is dropping a live rodent in... then there's the not so pretty way of feeding your snake a live rodent that's... how should I say... incompasitated? It's a little icky for a beginner or the kind at heart, but the way I see it, that rat/mouse is going to die either way, so I'd rather not have a hole in my snakes.

Do I really need to describe how this is done, or do you get what I'm saying?

Ouchy! Did he recover OK?

I've considered stunned but I wonder about the value. One thing that I've heard alot about in other places is that F/T has a much lower parasite risk. If its not a true live feed then I know of no advantage to not going F/T - except that its a pain.

A number of people have said that the risk with stunning is that the rodent might wake up early and be really P.O.'d.

The other option I've considered is "de-arming" of the prey item. Of course, a little claw clipping is no big deal but when it comes to the teeth I can't think of anything that isn't too cruel or too risky.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

HAHA. Ok, Adam, I'll say unequivocably that I don't think you're lying at all. And, if you keep that close an eye on all those snakes then that's great and I believe you.

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Well color me lucky I guess. ;)

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I only called the "nary a bite or scratch" into question because it suggests that a rodent never even gets a chance. In the feedings I've witnessed a strike to the rear of the rodent gives it a small window of time to do something.

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The way I feed and have my animals dialed in, the rodent never does get a chance ... 99.99% of the time, my snakes lunge out of their tubs and snatch the rodent off of the tongs throwing coils around them so fast if you blink you'll miss it. Most of them have to be lifted back in to the tub because they are dangling in mid air wrapped around the rodent. I have less than a handful of animals that need to eat in the privacy of their own tubs with no one around and for them, reducing stress by leaving the enclosure in tact is critical.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* I'm still debating the value of leaving everything in the cage. I can understand the value of leaving the snake's home undisturbed but I have noticed that poor strikes are more common when there are obstacles in the "kill-zone". My BP's eye scratch was from a small mouse that he took butt-first from around a corner. Because he had to pull the mouse back to get it to a point where he could constrict, it had more than average reaction time. The mouse used this time to double back and bite at my BP's face and eye.

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My guess would be that the problem is more about your "routine" than anything to do with "obstacles in the kill zone" ... your snake has evolved over millions of years to be one of the most efficient predators in the history of this planet ... things in it's way aren't a problem ... it's having live rodents thrown into it's environment unexpectedly that usually messes them up.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

My theory on this subject is that people with tubs tend to have simple cage layouts and perhaps overlook the effect of furniture in a decorative enclosure. In general, I think its easy for anybody giving advice to unknowingly assume that the snake's environment is the same as theirs.

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Why would you believe that I don't have snakes set up in decorative enclosures?

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Originally Posted by bearhart

* Does BP advice apply to bigger snakes?

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I have no idea ... I only work with ball pythons.

Your questions seem to be based all around things going wrong after the rodent is presented to the snake ... what I advocate is to prepare your snake in advance and there won't be any time for the rodent to do anything. If live feedings are done properly by the keeper, the rodent should be out of commision fractions of a second after being presented to the ball python. That's how I do it at least.

-adam

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Ouchy! Did he recover OK?

I've considered stunned but I wonder about the value. A number of people have said that the risk with stunning is that the rodent might wake up early and be really P.O.'d.

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The rat/mouse never has a chance to wake up early. I stun, then offer by tongs or fingers (in a glove) as they "twitch", and they'll strike and constrict. If they have no interest after about 20 seconds, I'll offer it to the next snake. I never let the rat/mouse out of my hands unless it's into the snake's mouth.

As for the bitten burmese, yeah, he recovered nicely. I didn't have to make him a helmet.

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

Well color me lucky I guess. ;)

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np. :-)

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The way I feed and have my animals dialed in, the rodent never does get a chance ... 99.99% of the time, my snakes lunge out of their tubs and snatch the rodent off of the tongs throwing coils around them so fast if you blink you'll miss it. Most of them have to be lifted back in to the tub because they are dangling in mid air wrapped around the rodent. I have less than a handful of animals that need to eat in the privacy of their own tubs with no one around and for them, reducing stress by leaving the enclosure in tact is critical.

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Interesting - off the tongs eh? Is this because of your routine and pre-scenting? I do a little bit of pre-scenting but I have limited it because I drop the rodent in and have had problems with my snakes striking the glass and/or screen top. However, they are always aware it's coming. Also, my BP isn't that aggressive. He doesn't require privacy but he's very much into waiting for the ambush.

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My guess would be that the problem is more about your "routine" than anything to do with "obstacles in the kill zone" ... your snake has evolved over millions of years to be one of the most efficient predators in the history of this planet ... things in it's way aren't a problem ... it's having live rodents thrown into it's environment unexpectedly that usually messes them up.

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See above. My other snakes (including my juvenile corn) have a "come and get it" attitude. This is not true with my Sep '06 BP. He's a great eater and has only refused a meal once.

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Why would you believe that I don't have snakes set up in decorative enclosures?

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I was speaking generally - I imagined you might.

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I have no idea ... I only work with ball pythons.

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Yea, I figured this. However, I added something about larger snakes because my point is about blanket claims around the safety of live feeding.

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Your questions seem to be based all around things going wrong after the rodent is presented to the snake ... what I advocate is to prepare your snake in advance and there won't be any time for the rodent to do anything. If live feedings are done properly by the keeper, the rodent should be out of commision fractions of a second after being presented to the ball python. That's how I do it at least.

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I would agree with this but I still feel like something is missing. I can buy that a snake taking a rodent off of the tongs is safer primarily because you are practially guaranteeing a strike on the front half of the prey's body. However, you didn't seem to think that this was key. I don't feed my snakes "un-awares" and so I still can't see what I'd be doing different from you.

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Originally Posted by bait4snake

The rat/mouse never has a chance to wake up early. I stun, then offer by tongs or fingers (in a glove) as they "twitch", and they'll strike and constrict. If they have no interest after about 20 seconds, I'll offer it to the next snake. I never let the rat/mouse out of my hands unless it's into the snake's mouth.

As for the bitten burmese, yeah, he recovered nicely. I didn't have to make him a helmet.

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How do you stun them?

It involves holding a tail, their head, and a hard surface.

Some may call it cruel... I'd rather not see another hole in any of my snakes... THAT'S cruel. Been there, done that. Like I said, the rat/mouse will be dead either way... I'm just helping along the process. You just need to have the stomach for it.

My snakes won't eat F/T consistently, so this is the way I go.

BTW, my method... zero chance of a snake injury.

What an interesting thread! I've never heard much about live feeding before, it's definitely been a bit eye-opening.

I personally feed f/t. I really dislike having breeding rats and mice in my house (even when we tried keeping them in the garage) and it's WAY cheaper for me to keep a freezer full of meals than to buy fresh and wiggling every time I feed.

I used to feed live occasionally, especially when I first had ball pythons and that's what they had been eating before I bought them, and they turned their noses up when I offered f/t. Also, if I couldn't get f/t for the boas in the right size at the pet store, I'd grab a live one and supervise very closely.

The last time I fed a live mouse to my ball pythons, it was to my little boy "Lizard". He struck, grabbed hard, and coiled, but the mouse managed to make about three puncture wounds along his back, and they just barely bled. It really scared me because I was right there, supervising with tongs just in case, but the head of the rodent was buried deep in coils and I couldn't see him getting bit. The wounds healed up quickly and there wasn't really any major problems other than him being a bit sore (I'm assuming) and me being a bit traumatized. None of the punctures left a scar.

I left him alone for a few weeks, dangled a f/t wean rat outside his hide, and he ate it and never looked back.

Really, though, it boils down to experience, technique, vigilance, and personal preference. There are definitely extremists on both ends of the spectrum out there. :P