the snake/human relationship

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Originally Posted by bearhart

shhhh... I have a reputation to keep up.... :rolleye2:

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Every time i see a post of yours, it seems like your trying so hard to justify the information you get from who knows where. What websites or biologist's do you get your info from? Most of the people that disagree with you on this forum have been doing this stuff for years man, and you come along and try and change the way bp's are done. Good job buddy :salute:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, here's an example of a positive association for a snake. Let's say it craps in its hide. It knows what it is because it won't go back in there. So we can say that it doesn't "like" crap. It also knows that thats its hide and probably has the desire to go back in there as well. I would then say that the snake doesn't "like" the situation. Then, your hand comes in, does some stuff, and suddenly the hide is all nice again. I'm not 100% sure but I would guess that the snake has some sort of positive association with that since it gets to go back into its hide. It will also most likely associate that with your smell. I think that's about all the "liking" they are capable of but I still consider it "liking".

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this is untrue. I have 2 corns who will poo in their hides and they go right back in there. I have an RTB that 'knows' what his water dish is yet he poo's in it all the time. so if he 'knows' it's his drinking dish why would he poo in it? and I have 6 bp's that will poo anywhere they feel and lay in it.

So that part of your "theory"...nah-ah.

Snakes don't like humans they tolerate humans. If you left the lids off your tanks they would be gone. So if they have such a 'connection' to their owner why would they choose to leave?

just sayin'

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Originally Posted by jeffnme

this is untrue. I have 2 corns who will poo in their hides and they go right back in there. I have an RTB that 'knows' what his water dish is yet he poo's in it all the time. so if he 'knows' it's his drinking dish why would he poo in it? and I have 6 bp's that will poo anywhere they feel and lay in it.

So that part of your "theory"...nah-ah.

Snakes don't like humans they tolerate humans. If you left the lids off your tanks they would be gone. So if they have such a 'connection' to their owner why would they choose to leave?

just sayin'

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You rock meme!! :rockon:

If I left my tubs open, every snake of mine would be gone. :) And slithering through poop seems to be one of their hobbies.

I was thinking about the potty-training thing.. I think that it is not something that snakes do consciously. Now with mammals, it is a sporadic thing in my experience, unless it is trained into an animal. I have two horses. One of them religiously poops/urinates along only one wall of her stall. It ias gotten so that i can leave all of the straw in her stall and just pick out the area where she poops.. the urine drains out into the grass behind the barn, the way it is set up. Now, my other mare will not only poop everywhere; she'll walk all around in it and spread it all over the stall. And she loves pooping into her water tub; maybe it is the satisfying "splash" that it makes? lol..
Both mares were kept in the same conditions all of their lives.. I have heard of people potty-training chickens, rabbits, and the like. I have never heard of a snake that will consistently poop in one place in its tank.. I would love to see video evidence of this, or see it in person, but I doubt it has ever happened.

so far mine has either gone outside of his hide or he vacates his hide if he goes inside. I've seen other posts to that effect. It prolly varies from snake to snake.

Anyway, my point wasn't really about potty training it was just to give an example of things we do for them that could register in their heads.

Its all just speculation and there's really no use in saying somebody is right or wrong since there is no way for us to really know what its like to be a snake. Maybe its true, maybe they just "tolerate" us. But what does that mean? How is saying that really different from saying they "like" or "dislike" us?

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Originally Posted by bearhart

so far mine has either gone outside of his hide or he vacates his hide if he goes inside. I've seen other posts to that effect. It prolly varies from snake to snake.

Anyway, my point wasn't really about potty training it was just to give an example of things we do for them that could register in their heads.

Its all just speculation and there's really no use in saying somebody is right or wrong since there is no way for us to really know what its like to be a snake. Maybe its true, maybe they just "tolerate" us. But what does that mean? How is saying that really different from saying they "like" or "dislike" us?

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Maybe they are just trying to escape their heavily scented area to avoid being detected by a predator.

Like and dislike....I like something for a reason and I dislike something for another reason; often these reasons are also opinions. I just don't think my snake can do that.

Wow, a lot of people have commented on this topic since I've been gone. A lot of interesting ideas and theories.

First off, I just wanted to say that my original topic was never a question of "do snakes love?" I only wanted to know if they recognized owners through a heat signature or, if not, through which means. I have to agree, after reading the arguments, that perhaps it is more smell than "sight" (heat). I forget who it was but someone said that if the tub smelled like mouse, and you stuck your hand in there, you'd probably get bitten. The snake wouldnt see the heat pattern and say "oh, that's mommy/daddy, not food." They'd smell mouse, register heat, and strike.

I suppose I'll re-evaluate my hypothesis then to say that snakes, as with most animals, recognize familiar surroundings through various senses. The strongest of these being "sight" and smell/taste.

However, while I'm here, I'll put in my thoughts on whether or not a snake can love. I'm on the boat that believes they do not. My opinion is that a snake merely sees us as part of its environment. It becomes accustomed to us cleaning, feeding, watering, etc. and thus when we hold it, it just assumes the ground is moving more than likely. -lol-

But, now that I think about it, all of this answers my question as to why my Harlett will always come to me over my sister or anyone else who might want to hold her. It's because that person does not smell or taste familiar. Perhaps they are also colder or warmer than me. But more than that, they are not part of Harlett's regular environment. She is "in unfamiliar territory" while on another person. Therefore, she returns to her space - me.

So, in true children's program fashion, lets reiterate what we've learned.

A- Snakes recognize their surroundings through multiple sense, not just their heat sensors.

B- A snake's owner is tolerated because they are part of the snake's regular environment.

C- A snake will return to said owner, because when it is away from the owner it is in unknown territory, and it recognizes (through its many senses) that person (its owner) as safe and familiar.

--> A+B=C <--

I feel like I've just had an epiphany. -lol- It's good to get a bunch of ideas together and then see how they interlock. Thanks for everyone who responded to my original post. It helped me realize a few things. ^_^

And, just because it's funny, here's a picture:
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c1...ashouse035.jpg
*please note, neither myself nor the car is actually for sale* ...Well, if you really wanted the car feel free to make an offer.

wow the OP returns?!?!?!


Well its anybody's guess I suppose. And to some extent is becomes a matter of word definition


For my part, I have noticed definate differences in behavior in my BP depending on who's holding it. Also, when he sits there for ages while I pet his neck or, like today, when he falls asleep staring right at me and coiled around my thumb, I have a hard time believing there is absolutely nothing there. In fact, its not even possible when you consider a WC snake would never do that. I might say my snake "likes" me, and somebody else might say I'm anthropomorphising and that my snake only "tolerates" me. But, what they rarely acknowledge is that the oft-used terms "tolerates" and "stresses" are no less subject to that very same argument. Apparently it is OK to say a snake "disklikes", "tolerates", or is "stressed" by something but its not OK to say it "likes" something. Why???

In some ways, it appears to be a game of semantics. What one person means whey they say a word such as "like" does not always mean what someone else might be thinking. I don't have any problems with someone suggesting their snake "likes" them because it appears to behave in a more secure and relaxed manner around them.

But not all this language boils down to personal opinion or semantic games. A word such as "tolerate" is not subjective. If a ball python is tolerating someone's attention, it shows by a relaxed attitude of either falling asleep or attempting to explore. If it is not tolerating someone, it also shows, by a tense balled up posture, or hissing or even striking.

Where we tend to get a bit divisive is when we try to define our ectothermic friends with human emotions. As humans, it is in our nature to want to experience some sort of bond with anyone or anything we care about. Heck, we even do it with inanimate objects like a favorite stuffed toy or a cherished book or photograph. I think I'm pretty darned safe in saying that my teddy bear feels no love toward me and would feel no pain at being separated from me. But that doesn't mean my heart accepts that truth when I drop the bear into a charity bin to pass him on to a child in need. It's one thing to know something intellectually...but something else to also accept that truth into your heart.

Snakes aren't teddy bears, though. They're actually alive. So maybe they DO feel something??? While I think it is the height of hubris to assume and insist that snakes feel nothing....I also believe that they don't feel "emotions" as we humans understand them. The bonds built between me and a beloved snake are real enough...but in all liklihood, just as one-sided as the bond between me and my teddy bear.

(And I do realize the OP isn't talking about emotional bonds...but rather just physical recognition....it's late....and I tend to talk too much after midnight. :P My thoughts on that...I believe there is enough anecdotal evidence to convince me that snakes can and do recognize certain people, if they have enough regular, consistent contact with them. However, I believe this recognition is not personal...but merely another facet of their environment.)