How can a cage be too big???

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Also, my argumentative nature is often perceived as obstinace but is actually a way of sifting out the best info.

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Or just maybe, despite all your rationalizations, it's just obstinance. Yeah, I know, it's a crazy thought! :D

Whoops, where did Good Sarah go? :bolt:

Well I won't deny the urge to spoil him. The name "Snakey" says it all. "Yes you are my little Snakey aren't you? aren't you? Yes you are! Gootchie gootchi goo!" Wait, did I say that out loud?

I'm torn for sure. Maybe I'll bump him up a little before too long and see how he does. Like I said earlier, 95% of the time he needs only half the space he has but there are times I'm sure he would have fun with some more room. The challenge to me seems to be in how you configure the area so as to provide one or more secure small areas but allow some optional access to roam.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Well I won't deny the urge to spoil him. The name "Snakey" says it all. "Yes you are my little Snakey aren't you? aren't you? Yes you are! Gootchie gootchi goo!" Wait, did I say that out loud?

I'm torn for sure. Maybe I'll bump him up a little before too long and see how he does. Like I said earlier, 95% of the time he needs only half the space he has but there are times I'm sure he would have fun with some more room.

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Alright, I understand the urge to spoil your snake. I want the very best for my snake and so I do my best to provide that. However, the most important part of owning a snake and making him/her healthy and stress-free is to provide a suitable set-up. I side with Robin and many of the other people who have similar opinions, YOUR snake is NOT thriving in the conditions that your recommending to other herpers, yet when your reminded of this we're all of a sudden bringing a skeleton out of the closet. But that just happens to be the reality of the situation. There really is NO mild RI to deal with, b/c it always leads to bigger problems. As you stated yourself, one of the best things to do to treat and help prevent further RI's is to fix your husbandry set-up. Yet you are still preaching the conflicting information that you supposedly came here to debate away (which from what I've seen your only aiding in the spread of conflicting information).

Also there is the anthropomorphizing part of the equation. You cannot expect a snake to feel the emotion we describe as "happy". A hunter that is not high up on the foodchain is never going to be "happy", too many variables for them to worry about (even if we do our best to rid them) that at best they could be "content". A bp naturally has to worry about larger predators, staying hidden, finding it's own food, thermoregulating, shedding, acquiring water, etc. Then add the obvious stress that WE put them through when we keep them as pets. We take them out, a larger animal actually plays with them. Imagine what it would be like for a troll to come and play with us. The least we can do is provide them what they would find to be a cozy, secure, and as stress-free set-up as possible. This is BEST obtained with a small enclosure with even smaller hides.

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The challenge to me seems to be in how you configure the area so as to provide one or more secure small areas but allow some optional access to roam.

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Which brings me to my next point. There is no real need for a snake to need and enclosure large enough for it to roam. Roaming is almost always a sure sign of stress. Yes, it's unhealthy to keep any animal in TOO small an enclosure, because a snake does need to stretch out every once and awhile. But as long as you handle your bp every once in awhile to worry about your snake getting enough excercise is a moot point. :2cent:

I'm not sure why everybody is bashing me on this other than for personal reasons.

There are five prior posters who have said something to indicate they think that a large enclosure can work under the right circumstances. Two of the posters said they are having success with large enclosures. All I've really said is that I think it sounds like its worth a try if done carefully. That statement is based both on their statements as well as those of the people who feel it is not a good idea.

Nobody is bashing these other posters and somehow its turned into some sort of trial of my husbandry.

And, if you're going to give the anthropomorphism argument, please review your own text. The argument doesn't just apply to words like "prefers" and "enjoys". It also applies to words like "worry" and "stressed".

So, an accomplished vet (these guys are most definately not quacks) told me it was a mild RI. Gooseman, please enlighten me as to your experience and expertise that qualifies you to say there is no such thing.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, an accomplished vet (these guys are most definately not quacks) told me it was a mild RI. Gooseman, please enlighten me as to your experience and expertise that qualifies you to say there is no such thing.

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Yes, I have very little actual hands-on experience in the matter, HOWEVER, I am a biomedical science major and have worked at a vets office for the last 3 and a half years, and through my studies I have found the following to be true. We always stress that one needs to watch their snake to watch for signs of stress that may cause a compromised immune system. A compromised immune systems makes it easy for a snake to obtain either viral or bacterial RI's, along with a laundry list of other medical conditions. Concerning an RI, The best method for diagnosis is a radiograph to definitively determine the existence of a respiratory infection. The lungs should appear clear in the x-ray, because the bacteria buildup will increase the density of the respiratory tract and will show up as a foggy mass on an x-ray. Along with an x-ray, tracheal wash should be performed to get sample bacteria to do a culture and then to help determine the best anitbiotics for treating the RI. Often times the bacteria involved in a respiratory infection may travel up the trachea to the mouth creating a secondary oral infection (i.e. mouth rot). The opposite is also true when the underlying condition is an oral infection the bacteria may travel down the trachea to the lungs creating a secondary respiratory infection. In the case of a primary oral infection it may be possible to detect a respiratory infection early and begin treatment before it becomes critical. Treatment of a respiratory infection is critical. This is especially true in snakes, which have only one functional lung. The upper portion of a snake's lung performs gas exchange while the lower portion of the lung serves as an air sac. The snake has no working diaphram as we do. To breath a snake actually has to pump it's lungs with its muscles to force the gas-exchange. However, this makes it impossible for a snake to cough up any mucus build-up in their airway. ANY build-up in the upper respiratory tract will eventually travel down into the lower air-sac which will then make the infection significantly harder to treat. If you understand the mechanical differences between our respiratory system and a snakes, it shoud be obvious why RI's are so devastating in snakes. Following proper diagnosis by an experienced reptile veterinarian, treatment should involve antibacterial agents. If the underlying environmental conditions are not corrected all the treatment in the world will not do the reptile any good at all.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I'm not sure why everybody is bashing me on this other than for personal reasons.

There are five prior posters who have said something to indicate they think that a large enclosure can work under the right circumstances. Two of the posters said they are having success with large enclosures. All I've really said is that I think it sounds like its worth a try if done carefully. That statement is based both on their statements as well as those of the people who feel it is not a good idea.

Nobody is bashing these other posters and somehow its turned into some sort of trial of my husbandry.

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This is not an attack against you, however you keep bringing up how you like the debates yet are first to call it an attack when we single you out. The other posters are SUCCESSFULLY keeping animals in their enclosures and are not experiencing medical problems that can be attributed to their set-ups ATM

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And, if you're going to give the anthropomorphism argument, please review your own text. The argument doesn't just apply to words like "prefers" and "enjoys". It also applies to words like "worry" and "stressed".

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Stress is not an emotion, stress is a documented medical condition that leads to other medical problems. "happyness" and "depression" are emotions that we use to describe why we cycle through stress phases.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

BUT - I am also an often misunderstood person. Social nuances are a challenge for me at best and once my technical side gets fired up I lose what little I have and tend to become very serious, impersonal, and terse. I'm a champion of truth and reason and all else becomes secondary - including social graces. Alot of people aren't into that.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I'm not sure why everybody is bashing me

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Perhaps you've answered your own question. I too have a "technical" side that I manage to keep under lock and key under certain circumstances...especially if that situation involves a living creature with which I have little or no experience with AND I'm soliciting the advice of a community which has a plethora of it.

My advice to you would be to set your ego aside for a while and learn to be a little less argumentative on subjects that you have very little experience with. The advice given to you comes from a variety of respected and venerated breeders/hobbyists/enthusiasts from the herping community and ultimately it's upto you to decide if your gonna take it or reinvent the wheel.

Just my :2cent:

Impressive. Much better than I expected by a long shot.

I would, however, be willing to bet you a large sum that my vet has at least 1000 times the documentable experience (classroom, field, etc) than you do with infections in snakes. In fact, these vets could easily make the claim that they are the most experienced (and most expensive :( ) exotics vets in my home city (pop over 1 million). Their office looks nicer than some clinics I've been in and, when I was there, it was packed with dogs, cats, turtles, ducks, you name it. There was a burm coming out of surgery for stomatitis and the sutures were so good all you could see was tiny hair-sized lines across its snout.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Impressive. Much better than I expected by a long shot.

I would, however, be willing to bet you a large sum that my vet has at least 1000 times the documentable experience (classroom, field, etc) than you do with infections in snakes.

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I have no doubt in my mind that they do, I never claimed to be anything more than a student. I just wanted to show that even though I don't have a vast amount of hands on experience, I do know a thing or two, and I'll be the first to admit I want to know more.

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In fact, these vets could easily make the claim that they are the most experienced (and most expensive :( ) exotics vets in my home city (pop over 1 million). Their office looks nicer than some clinics I've been in and, when I was there, it was packed with dogs, cats, turtles, ducks, you name it. There was a burm coming out of surgery for stomatitis and the sutures were so good all you could see was tiny hair-sized lines across its snout.

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I'm sure the place in quite impressive, and I'm sure they know what they are doing. Its just to call a RI "mild and not needing treatment" seems questionable to me. It may not need immediate medical attention, but ALL RI's need treatment or else are fatal.

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Originally Posted by iceman25

Perhaps you've answered your own question. I too have a "technical" side that I manage to keep under lock and key under certain circumstances...especially if that situation involves a living creature with which I have little or no experience with AND I'm soliciting the advice of a community which has a plethora of it.

My advice to you would be to set your ego aside for a while and learn to be a little less argumentative on subjects that you have very little experience with. The advice given to you comes from a variety of respected and venerated breeders/hobbyists/enthusiasts from the herping community and ultimately it's upto you to decide if your gonna take it or reinvent the wheel.

Just my :2cent:

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Ironically, I'm trying. I only wanted to have a nice chat about large cages.

Thing is, I'm really the only person here who has admitted any fault at anything. I get flamed for giving "vet advice" yet others do it. I've pointed out that my vet has made some very good arguments to me for not doing an initial culture as well as using oral Baytril. Does anybody here even acknowledge that? One thing that they pointed out was that there was not conclusive evidence that oral Baytril does not work, and that they had positive experiences with it. They also pointed out that there are some significant side effects to injections which include risk of necrosis in the muscle tissue as well as increased pain for the animal (which is certiainly true). In addition, they provided me with a nice long printout from a vet's forum on the issue to back it up. Anybody here mention any of this stuff? No. I got things like "Injections are the only way to go." etc. Who's flaming those people for giving vet advice?????