Why the heck do people keep breeding spider morphs?

Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off. Seeing that kind of indifference to a life is a bit disturbing. If the argument is "it doesn't affect quality of life so we don't have to kill any (or not any more, percentage-wise, than any other morph", well, that's a whole different argument. So you're never quite sure which one is actually true. . .

I honestly don't think the number of spiders that fail to thrive/need to be culled compares to the number for Caramel, or the number of pearls that fail to thrive, or the number of ball pythons with underbites/sharkmouth which fail to thrive. Honestly I think wobble is one of the less severe problems with ball python breeding.

Heck, consider how many normals are likely culled each year by less moral breeders who don't want to be stuck with snakes which are less desirable.

Personal preference may shy one away from certain genetic lines for associated downsides, but realistically it's not like we're talking about pure breed dogs which have horrific genetic defects that appear over their lives, leading to putting them down.

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Originally Posted by tat2d1

Not all spiders exhibit "weird behaviors " either. My spider girl has no wobble, and so far none of her spider gene offspring have shown any issues either.

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I have had a couple local people tell me that too.
I wouldnt bet your check on it.
They were wrong as well.

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Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off.

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Please show me where someone said "you have to kill them so who care", you either miss the point or have comprehension issues. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off. Seeing that kind of indifference to a life is a bit disturbing. If the argument is "it doesn't affect quality of life so we don't have to kill any (or not any more, percentage-wise, than any other morph", well, that's a whole different argument. So you're never quite sure which one is actually true. . .

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Actually, I hadn't considered your opening statement fully. The breeders who are the kind of people in this for only the money are not going to end up saying "who cares?" Because they care. That snake just ate into their potential profit margin. Mind that I'm referring to the same overarching group* who is more likely to cull normals because the cost to house and feed them would be more than they wish to expend.

The professional breeders also include many people who care deeply about the animals they have, and only a slim few breeders, hobbyist or professional, are the kinds of people who cull snakes without it being better for the animal than the suffering they would endure in life.

*Note: the overarching group refers to a group of people who care about profit margins on the snakes, not all members of that group would cull normals, and not all members of that group are professionals.

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Originally Posted by Willowy

Well, I mean, if the attitude of the pro side is "so we have to kill some of them, who cares", that does turn a lot of people off. Seeing that kind of indifference to a life is a bit disturbing. If the argument is "it doesn't affect quality of life so we don't have to kill any (or not any more, percentage-wise, than any other morph", well, that's a whole different argument. So you're never quite sure which one is actually true. . .

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The same conversation over and over. So I will ask the same question again. Does anyone have firsthand knowledge of a spider being culled because of wobble? I don't. If no one has, then people need to stop perpetuating the cull rumor.

On another note, there is supposedly a spider morph that does not wobble, unless I missed some update. It does not look very much like a spider though. Last I heard black head x spider does not wobble.

I've produced many spiders and spider combos over the years, easily 100+ and I've never seen one corkscrew nor have I had to cull one. Some seem to have no wobble at all even though they all eventually have the head tilt which I consider a mild wobble. I've only had one customer complain about the wobble but he owed me some money so we called it even. I think the wobble concern is overblown but if you don't want to own or breed them that's fine.

I actually don't know of any actual breeders who said they culled a spider due to severe wobble. I have known several breeders(including myself) who have culled defects that made the animal nonviable(kinking too severe to allow the animal to survive being most common and not a spider defect).

If the argument is "I don't think any spider should be bred because one MIGHT be hatched with a wobble so severe that they have to be culled"... then #1 you'd need to prove that spiders are being hatched with wobbles so severe they are culled and #2 you'd have to show it was at a higher occurrence than the possible defects requiring culling in all ball python hatchlings.

Normal to normal can produce defects. Incubator issues can produce defects. So to avoid the possibility of hatching a snake with a defect, don't breed.

If you just don't like spider wobble, then don't own spiders, as I said above. No one is forcing any keeper to own spider ball pythons. It's this nonsense that spiders are being murdered willynilly as soon as they hatch due to nonviable wobble issues that annoys me. Most everyone that breeds spiders knows they wobble. Some are unnoticable. I've seen spiders that "wobble" less than an excited normal.

As much as the cull argument is over used so to is the if you don't want a wobbly snake don't own spiders. If you don't know the facts how is this helpful? Does it not go with out saying? Also there is a distinct difference between producing a random defect and continuously breeding animals that pocess them. Say you were to hatch two animals one with a slight neurological issue, but otherwise exactly the same. The defective one eats, poops, and sleeps. Which of these two would you carry into your breeding project? Of course we do not have this choice with spiders, but I hope you catch my drift. Some people accept this defect as slight enough to pass on their nice pattern. I do not. I am also not convinced that it does not effect the animals except for in extremely mild cases. I will admit this based more on personal opinion than cold hard facts.

If people dont like spider why worry about it? I can say that there is no difference between coral glow and banana but one is brighter than the other. Same as ghost and orange ghost. More than most look alike. Not everyone is capable of handling a handicapable object being animal or human. Anything that has a "wobble", "corkscrew", odd behavior, etc. should be considered handicapped. If no love for the handicapped, you are not a human being. My own opinion.

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