Let's Discuss Dietary Requirements for Ball Pythons

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

So, my set up is unique in that I have a separate building for my reptiles. I also do not keep anything but varanids, heloderms, and colubrids these days. I sold off my boids years ago. Our tortoises are kept outside in pens.

The building is kept at roughly 73 to 75 degrees during the day. Everything I have basks, so they are given basking sites of some sort. The front of the building is about 35% window, so temps increase slightly during the day. During the summer I let temps drop uncontrolled at night and during the winter I control the drop.

Now, if I were to use the same building for ball pythons, I would experiment around to find an ambient temperature in the building that lowers to about 77 degrees at night and allows for a range of about 82 to 88 in the enclosures depending on the time of the day.

I would also not provide a hot spot, but a slightly - very slightly - warmer basking spot during the first few hours of the night to stimulate the elective behavior of finding some residual heat after the sun goes down.

I think that once dialed in, I could provide a natural cycle.

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The inner perfectionist in me just found a proportional thermostat available that can make daily/monthly adjustments to lighting/humidity/temperature based upon preset climate zones (that are fully customizable). In my own perfect little world, I would love to have that kind of flexibility. Perhaps some day...

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

Some food for thought - especially with regards to differing diets of male and female balls pythons:

Concerning the python diet, Luiselli and Angelci (1998) demonstrated that, although rodents were the main prey type for both sexes, the males differed from the females because they fed significantly more often on arboreal prey (birds), whereas the female diet was based nearly exclusively on terrestrial rodents. The authors hypothesized that these differences were attributable to a higher use of the arboreal niche by males, as also suggested by some incidental observations of males climbed on low tree branches.


So males are more apt to climb and also have adapted to actively hunt and make use of less calorically dense prey types.

There are further studies that confirm this fact (increase arboreality of males vs. females/more varied diet) that were incidental to studies on why female and male ball pythons carry differing external parasite loads.

I would therefore argue that even if 10% were adequate for a female, male ball pythons have been studies as more active hunters that could potentially expend more calories hunting down avian prey that have less calories than mammalian prey.

A large rat is roughly 62% protein, 33% fat and has an energy rating of 6.40 kcal/gram of rat.

A chick has a similar protein profile, but 11% less fat and an energy rating of 5.80 kcal/gram.

However we can probably safely say that wild african songbirds and other ball python target prey items are more active and less fatty than a domestic chick or quail.

Bottom line - even if 10% was a safe prey mass ratio for female ball pythons, it could easily be argued that if may be too much for males.

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Skiploder,
You have offered up some great information and some thought provoking questions. I'd like to make a few comments starting with the information above. While this shows that some males will seek arboreal food more often then females, it doesn't offer a reason as to why. Could it be the larger body size of the female makes it less suitable to climbing? Could it be that the male choosing to feed on higher elevated prey leaves more food readily available to the ground constrained females, and much like warblers stratifying in the jack pines, it doesn't depleat the source? It wouldn't seem that the different genders would have different dietary requirements as far as the chemical composition of the food item, so there must be another reason. What ever the reason, it is interesting.

With regard to the 10% to 15% feeder amount, I have always looked at that as a not to exceed number with hatchlings, and have pretty much ignored it all together with regard to larger snakes. On the larger snakes I have just used the snake body diameter > or = prey diameter formula. Regarding frequency I have fed my hatchlings for sale just once a week and have only used the shortened 5 day schedule on those subjects that I was trying to move along a little quicker for my own breeding plans. None of the adults are fed more than once a week unless I have a refusal and it's a matter of either pitching the food item or offering a second to one of the others. But in those rare instances I tend to skip the following week for those animals that take the second item. I only use smalls or mediums for adult snakes. Neither smalls for the males or mediums for the females ever come close to the 15% mark once the animal is about 2 years old. Besides, a 2000 gram female would have a lot of trouble taking down a 300 gram rat, not to mention a 3500 or 4000 gram female.

As far as basking temps and such, I think that you are correct in that a lot of information gets passed along as fact but mainly because it has been reurgitated so often it is believed to be true, like an urban legend. However, I think we all can agree that we should at least try to create an environement that would provide some of the same consistancy of temperature as they would encounter in the wild. Anyone living north of the Mason dixon Line would certainly have trouble with that just using the ambients of their house since most of us like it around 70 or lower depending on your age, gender, or economic situation. So we provide a heat source whether UTH or Basking. And with the heat source is the necessity for regulation since most sources left uncontrolled can injure or worse. I agree that the actual range needed is probably far more wide ranging and forgiving then what gets stressed around here, but again it's easier to say a number than a range when someone is asking what to set the thermostat to. Also, if you tell people there is a wide range they may just think that regulating it is unnecessary which could have dire consequences. So we err on the side of caution. Regarding the natural temps, is there good data regarding the internal temps of the burrows during the daytime hours and the ground temperatures during the night? We can't just go by the average air temps since neither the day or night temps are what the animal is actually in contact with. When they are in the burrow during the day, it is precisely to avoid the daytime air temperatures. Also, if they are wholed up in a termite mound and not too deep in, they could be experiencing a drastically different temp then a snake in a burrow three feet below the ground surface. Same thing at night, since the entire bottom surface of the snake is often in contact with the ground, if the sun has heated that surface up drastically during the day and the evening hasn't allowed for too much radiant loss, the snake may be warmer than the air temp. How many snakes die on the road at night utilizing the surface temps of the asphalt?

All in all I believe your arguments valid, but if we are to change things then we need some good solid data. Also, it should be presented in a way that easily digestible to the layperson since they are going to most commonly be the ones asking. How do you suggest we proceed?

Love it. You da man, Skip.

I have a lot I could say on this but it could be summarized to 2 key points:
1) Learn the needs and behaviors of your animals and you'll never need to read a care sheet again
2) http://24.media.tumblr.com/80a74c3a5...58k3o1_500.png

This is the most fascinating thread I have read since discovering this forum. I have returned to BP keeping following a lengthy absence and my circumstances are much different.

Previously I had many dozens of BPs plus other snakes and lizards. I bred my own feed animals and fed on schedule with whatever I had that was, from observation, the 'correct' girth. As we were breeding we always had every size available.

Now that I have a much smaller collection and no personally bred feed animals it takes more planning about what to purchase and store..but.. the smaller number of animals has made feeding more tailored to animal need. I no longer have a feeding day. In the evening if the snake is active I make a point of watching it the next evening also. Any snake that appears to be hunting 2 nights in a row is offered a meal. Snakes that do not 'hunt' do not get offered but they do get checked and weighed just in case something is wrong (which it never has been)

My one exception to this has been small snakes which I worried about more since I feel the need to ensure they are getting a good start in life. They get offered regardless but now I have to rethink that also. I purchased a small BP on 12/12/14 and he took 2 rat pinkies the first week and another 2 the second, matching the every 3-5 days schedule. The last 2 weeks he hasn't eaten. On my last offering he struck the offered item hard enough to knock it out of the tub without any attempt to wrap it. I wouldn't worry about an adult not eating for 2 weeks but as he is a baby i checked on him. Well guess what? he knows what he is doing. I weighed him and in the month i had him he has gone from 110 grams to 160 grams, so I am sure he isn't hungry and would prefer not to be bothered.

I think skip has raised some interesting points and i think this has been a good exercise in examining our own behaviour rather than the snakes.

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

Skiploder,
You have offered up some great information and some thought provoking questions. I'd like to make a few comments starting with the information above. While this shows that some males will seek arboreal food more often then females, it doesn't offer a reason as to why. Could it be the larger body size of the female makes it less suitable to climbing? Could it be that the male choosing to feed on higher elevated prey leaves more food readily available to the ground constrained females, and much like warblers stratifying in the jack pines, it doesn't depleat the source? It wouldn't seem that the different genders would have different dietary requirements as far as the chemical composition of the food item, so there must be another reason. What ever the reason, it is interesting.

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Don't know. I've thought about body size playing a role...the possibility that they roam more than females in general and ambush less has predisposed them to be more active hunters...

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Originally Posted by rlditmars

As far as basking temps and such, I think that you are correct in that a lot of information gets passed along as fact but mainly because it has been reurgitated so often it is believed to be true, like an urban legend. However, I think we all can agree that we should at least try to create an environement that would provide some of the same consistancy of temperature as they would encounter in the wild. Anyone living north of the Mason dixon Line would certainly have trouble with that just using the ambients of their house since most of us like it around 70 or lower depending on your age, gender, or economic situation. So we provide a heat source whether UTH or Basking. And with the heat source is the necessity for regulation since most sources left uncontrolled can injure or worse. I agree that the actual range needed is probably far more wide ranging and forgiving then what gets stressed around here, but again it's easier to say a number than a range when someone is asking what to set the thermostat to. Also, if you tell people there is a wide range they may just think that regulating it is unnecessary which could have dire consequences. So we err on the side of caution. Regarding the natural temps, is there good data regarding the internal temps of the burrows during the daytime hours and the ground temperatures during the night? We can't just go by the average air temps since neither the day or night temps are what the animal is actually in contact with. When they are in the burrow during the day, it is precisely to avoid the daytime air temperatures. Also, if they are wholed up in a termite mound and not too deep in, they could be experiencing a drastically different temp then a snake in a burrow three feet below the ground surface. Same thing at night, since the entire bottom surface of the snake is often in contact with the ground, if the sun has heated that surface up drastically during the day and the evening hasn't allowed for too much radiant loss, the snake may be warmer than the air temp. How many snakes die on the road at night utilizing the surface temps of the asphalt?

All in all I believe your arguments valid, but if we are to change things then we need some good solid data. Also, it should be presented in a way that easily digestible to the layperson since they are going to most commonly be the ones asking. How do you suggest we proceed?

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I don't know. I really don't. I think we confuse people new to the hobby with all this talk about thermoregulation zones - hot, cold, ambient. Maybe it's easier to provide a gently varying ambient during the day, with a residual hot spot situated at the mouth of the hide with a night drop. the idea is that these animals tend to spend their days in humid microclimates. If we focus on that one simple trait, instead of three distinct zones ALL the time with a constant humidity of X%, we can simplify things.

Heat your room to 83 or 84 degrees, let it vary slightly with the rise and fall of the day and then let it drop to X at night. Utilize a UTH as soon as the cooling process begins for two or three hours and that's it. The microclimate of the den should be humid but not necessarily the whole enclosure.

Maybe it would be worth our time to design the perfect ball python micro climate hide....? Soak the hide and it gently releases humidity for an extended period of time, something along those lines.

In the USU Study on Ball Python behavior, the first person to breed these snakes in captivity at the Houston Zoo noted:

Logan noted that their ball pythons tended to spend more of their time in the
cooler areas of their cage as compared to other pythons and boas at the zoo. Specifically,
Logan states, “I’ve never seen our regius ‘bask’ under the warm spot…as do other
Boids.”

I haven't looked at exact denning temperatures, but I would think that they would be close to the incubation temperatures we advise. The idea is that - with the exception of night drops - the den IS the incubator. Ball pythons are maternal brooders and the tightly coiled ministrations of the female keep the temp as constant as possible when the sun goes down.

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Originally Posted by Skiploder

I haven't looked at exact denning temperatures, but I would think that they would be close to the incubation temperatures we advise. The idea is that - with the exception of night drops - the den IS the incubator. Ball pythons are maternal brooders and the tightly coiled ministrations of the female keep the temp as constant as possible when the sun goes down.

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I found the following piece of information regarding den temperatures. Per Ball Pythons by the Barkers (p 8):

• Greer (1994) measured temperature and humidity in three nest sites that were excavated in his presence. The burrows were in unshaded open ground, and the temperature of the ground surface over the burrows varied from 107 degrees to 111 degrees F (42 degrees to 44 degrees C); ambient relative humidity was 66 percent to 68 percent. The measured air temperatures inside the nesting chambers where females were brooding clutches of eggs varied from 92 degrees to 96 degrees F (33 degrees to 35.5 degrees C), and the ambient relative humidity of the air in the dry earthen chambers ranged from 83 percent to 88 percent.

On the surface, this seems to be contrary to their recommendation that "our snakes want to be cool, but they occasionally they warm up" (p 173). It's likely, IMO, that these elevated den temperatures were found because the search groups were specifically seeking nesting sites, in which they'd expect to find gravid females and/or clutches of eggs, and not necessarily regular use burrows. The Barker's do note later on that "gravid ball pythons will usually pick the warmer as the place to lay their eggs" (p 223) when offering gravid females a choice of a warmer vs a cooler part of the cage.

Their temperature recommendations are "ambient temperatures of 78 to 80 degrees F (26 to 27 degrees C) with a basking spot of 86 degrees F (30 degrees C)" (p 170-171). They then clarify this in regards to providing temperature gradients: "Even though the warm area of the cage may be 88 degrees F (31 degrees C) and the cool area 78 degrees F (26 degrees C), the ball python living in the cage can easily and purposely achieve a core body temperature of, say, 84 degrees F (29 degrees C). This the snake accomplishes behaviorally by selectively placing only part of its body in the warm area, and physiologically by deferentially shunting blood flow through the capillary beds in its skin," (p 171).

This follows my earlier thought process that the snakes knows better than I do its needs at any given time, which is why I provide a warm spot in addition to a consistent ambient temperature.

Pretty much everything is going to affect how much of a prey item is utilized making it nearly impossible to come up with a solid, long term guideline based on weight % alone. You've got stress levels, parasite loads, temperature ranges, prey type, prey age(fat content), activity level, etc. In conjunction with whatever numbers we come up with a picture guide showing the range of body types and prey options modeled after their wild diet would be most useful to new keepers. Maybe throw in some pictures under different circumstances covering a yearly cycle.

Example:
These snakes feed primarily on small rodents in the wild with males showing at least a seasonal tendency towards birds.
Followed by pictures or groups of pictures within each category:
1) snake is underweight
2) snake is overweight
3) snake is of average build
4) fasting male
5) building female
6) pre laying
7) post laying
8) neonate
9) yearling

Then folks who aren't sure can occasionally check the picture guide to see where their snake lies on the spectrum and adjust food intake accordingly. With so many keepers and pictures flooding the net, it's not always easy finding examples of these animals in the wild, let alone enough to get a decent idea of what their average body build should look like, but that's what I always strive for - a healthy, natural median. I'm not modeling my animals after the starving snake on death's door or the animal that just cleaned out a whole colony of rodents.

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Originally Posted by John1982

Pretty much everything is going to affect how much of a prey item is utilized making it nearly impossible to come up with a solid, long term guideline based on weight % alone.

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I did have the chance to read an article earlier today about almost this exact topic. I don't recall the specifics off the top of my head, but it was regarding digestion rate of various Python species (5 total), and balls were one of them. All 5 species were fed meals equivalent to 25% of their mass and monitored for a period of time. Of the 5 species, the balls were 2nd to last or last in terms of speed of digestion. This likely indicates that they are naturally able to "stretch" meals out for longer periods of time than the other species (or, that they don't require as fast of a metabolism as the other species for one reason or another).

Now, what this means in terms of coming up with some kind of generic feeding recommemdation, I don't know for sure. It's just more evidence that they don't need as much food as some may think. Personally, I took it as another tool in my toolbox to think about during periods of fasting.

I do like the idea of some sort of pictorial showing healthy ball pythons at various stages of their lives. I mean, really, who's going to say no to more pictures of snakes! :)

I have been thinking about this all day whilst working. I have come to a conclusion that i am sure that some others have reached before me but not said

i think the 10-15% every week myth is the work of those providing animal food items, in order to sell more

and readily believed by those wanting to see rapid progress

we all know the price of animals falls - i once paid £4250 (about $6500) for a lesser pastel - and the sales pitch is that you can be producing whatever you have bought in 2 years if you feed them up enough. So the temptation is to try and breed in 2 years instead of 3 before the price has dropped further. So the seller wins twice, he sells you an animal on the hope you can produce your own quickly and you buy the food items to try and make that happen

have i gone cynical or does anyone else think this may be the source of the feeding every week myth ?

I'm not so certain it was purposefully perpetuated... but yeah, I'm starting to see a correlation between people trying to beat the market and the aggressive feeding practices that have become standard in the hobby. With breeding BPs becoming more an more popular, it might be useful to set out to produce separate feeding guidelines between pet keepers, hobby breeders, and full time businesses, as well as enforce the idea that guidelines and generalizations are just that, and that the needs of individual snakes and their health should trump them.