Genetic Diversity in a Collection

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I think the reason t&c is excluding lethal combos and supers is because inbreeding doesn't cause them to be lethal. They are legal regardless of relation. The question, as I took it, was it asking for an example where inbreeding causes lethality that would not also occur with the right outbred combination.

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Exactly. As far as I have been able to find through hours of searching and talking multiple top breeders there has been no issues at all with inbred ball pythons. I have heard from quite a few that stated they have done multiple generations being inbred with no issues but not a single situation where it has caused any issues.

So again I call out all who day it is so bad. Find one single inbred ball python that has issues linked to inbreeding.

There are people on this very thread that demand proof of everything and is unable to provide proof to what they say. I just makes me laugh when the "scientist" who needs proof on everything is unable to provide what is always demanded by them.

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Gotcha, yeah we agree then, and i see what you were meaning by the exclusion now. All inbreeding does is crowd similar genes together, but without "bad" genes the crowding doesnt matter at all. Of course people can argue that it increases the likelyhood of bad traits being expressed but I think we would both agree that bad breeding practices can be done with both outcrossing and inbreeding.

Its pretty simple, we breed animals, if a deleterious trait pops up, you stop breeding them, to anything, no matter how high or low the COI is.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Gotcha, yeah we agree then, and i see what you were meaning by the exclusion now. All inbreeding does is crowd similar genes together, but without "bad" genes the crowding doesnt matter at all. Of course people can argue that it increases the likelyhood of bad traits being expressed but I think we would both agree that bad breeding practices can be done with both outcrossing and inbreeding.

Its pretty simple, we breed animals, if a deleterious trait pops up, you stop breeding them, to anything, no matter how high or low the COI is.

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Exactly. We could do nothing but outcross and have severely deformed babies. If an animal produces bad babies one year I do the same pairing the next. If all is good I was fault if not they are retired. Simple as that.

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You could use this exact same logic to defend inbreeding in humans.

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Originally Posted by Krynn

You could use this exact same logic to defend inbreeding in humans.

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Except in humans it has been proven that inbreeding produces genetic defects.

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You sure can use the same logic for humans.
However, humans are full of crappy genes. It's not like the defects or mutations pop out of no where. It is already in our genome. Inbreeding just makes it more likely to occur.
And if there is a health issue, people today in 2014 can generally live with it or with medical assistance.
No one lives the Spartan way and culls deformed or unfit offspring any more. And people rarely look at their genealogy to track whether or not they should have children with a certain person or not. (Although, I'm paranoid so I had to ask my boyfriend about his family's health history)

But this is where it differs between animals and humans.
Natural selection culls the unfit and deformed in the wild, so animals don't have as many issues.
And breeders act as that selection in captivity.

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Originally Posted by T&C Exotics

Except in humans it has been proven that inbreeding produces genetic defects.

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The mechanism is the same across the animal kingdom, and you can find many examples in many different species (including snakes).

Dont get me wrong, I am not of the opinion that all inbreeding is bad. Yes line breeding can be an effective way to make healthy animals. What concerns me is when people seem to be under the impression that inbreeding is never bad. I think that understanding what inbreeding depression is, what causes it, and how it works is beneficial for any animal breeder.

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Originally Posted by satomi325

It's not like the defects or mutations pop out of no where. It is already in our genome. Inbreeding just makes it more likely to occur.
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Sorry. Not mutations. lol.
I meant to say, deleterious alleles.

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Originally Posted by Krynn

The mechanism is the same across the animal kingdom, and you can find many examples in many different species (including snakes).

Dont get me wrong, I am not of the opinion that all inbreeding is bad. Yes line breeding can be an effective way to make healthy animals. What concerns me is when people seem to be under the impression that inbreeding is never bad. I think that understanding what inbreeding depression is, what causes it, and how it works is beneficial for any animal breeder.

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The whole point myself and others have been trying to make is that inbreeding, no matter how many generations, is not bad. Improper selection is bad.

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Originally Posted by Krynn

The mechanism is the same across the animal kingdom, and you can find many examples in many different species (including snakes).

Dont get me wrong, I am not of the opinion that all inbreeding is bad. Yes line breeding can be an effective way to make healthy animals. What concerns me is when people seem to be under the impression that inbreeding is never bad. I think that understanding what inbreeding depression is, what causes it, and how it works is beneficial for any animal breeder.

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I find more often people demonize inbreeding and do it pretty blindly also, especially when putting a generation number that is "ok". I am not referring to Pythonfriend, they explain their logic, while I might not agree with it, they are at least not doing it blindly. Many other I have talked to though, seem to have this magic ok number of generations then SHTF.

The same general concept (high homozygosity) that causes inbreeding depression can also make a stronger animal. I think both extremes should be talked about in the same conversation. I think the key is being selective. I mean in all honesty, why treat any pairing any different, if there are problems, stop them, why does the relationship matter? I see no reason to think after 3 generation all of a sudden defects happen out of nowhere and shouldn't breed after that magic number. It can be tough because we are always introducing new morphs, but be selective about your pairings when you can.