Just a thought....................

On topic answer, I don't see the prices dropping unless the supply of imported animals dries up either from regulation (emperor scorpions anyone?), massive habitat loss/destruction/climate change for the import farms (it's a problem, but not an acute one), or a major disease outbreak for the farms (possible, look what happened with chytrid).

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Originally Posted by Misha

Well here's a good example where you told me to look at my hobby from a business point of view. The only business point of view I know is to make money.

Look Pit, I'm not here to argue with you. I'm not saying breeders can't have ambitions or goals but eveyone has a different outlook on what is useful and what is not in breeding and elsewhere. So I'll agree to disagree with you on this.

I think if breeders stood their ground on normal's prices, people would buy them at the same price as private reptile stores sell them. What happens is people just start flooding the market and underselling their animals because they're trying to so over time, it becomes the norm and everyone expects to buy a normal for 10 bucks.

They'll always going to be a demand for normals as a beginner snake/pet snake so as long as we stop selling them for next to nothing, there's a slight chance they might be worth more than a couple of bucks.

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I started with a normal male, and I still have him. I also have a good day job and I certainly do not breed as a business. But I sat down the other day and started adding up just how much money I have thrown into this hobby, I stopped when I hit 10k in 20 seconds. So yes, I'd like to sell my non-holdbacks for more than $10 which is why that normal male is a PET. My male Scottie is a terrible example of what a Scottish Terrier should look like, that is why he's neutered. It doesn't mean I love him any less (I love that dog to bits, I cannot have children so my puppies are my "babies" and I love them fiercely) but he is absolutely useless as a breeding animal, in fact he would be a net negative as a breeding animal. No amount of love, nor the emotional value we place on an animal will change the monetary value of what's present in their genes.

The prices of normals are not driven by breeders in the US "flooding the market and underselling their animals" the market price of normals is set by the price of bulk imports from Africa. It's breeders here who are matching those prices, and we are a drop in the bucket of that supply. I certainly don't know anyone who produces tens of thousands of normal BPs here, which is the kind of bulk import volume that the large pet store chains are doing. It has nothing to do with breeders "standing their ground on normal's prices."

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Originally Posted by Misha

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I think if breeders stood their ground on normal's prices, people would buy them at the same price as private reptile stores sell them. What happens is people just start flooding the market and underselling their animals because they're trying to so over time, it becomes the norm and everyone expects to buy a normal for 10 bucks.

They'll always going to be a demand for normals as a beginner snake/pet snake so as long as we stop selling them for next to nothing, there's a slight chance they might be worth more than a couple of bucks.

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thats wishful thinking, thats the first problem i see. the second problem is that if made a reality, it would indeed be price fixing / the formation of a cartel. the third problem is that if there is overproduction, and you cannot go down with the price, you end up having to keep them or to cull them. the fourth problem is that you cannot get around the fact that there are african breeders that sell them for 5-10 dollars per hatchling, and they regularly put together shipments of 1000 or 2000 hatchlings, and they wont stop because they actually still make a profit doing this, and petco and petsmart and other big chains wont stop buying from them.

so, dreaming about the formation of a cartel to set a lower price limit is nice, but for that you need to change a few laws to allow for cartels, you need an import ban, and you need to somehow get rid of people like these two fellow forum members: (no offense, just making a point)

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KING JAMES

The problem with the stand your ground thing is that there are always people who simply do not want to deal with raising up normal males, myself included, that will sell them for cheap to get them gone. The joy of the free market. If all the breeders got together and agreed on certain prices for normals you would all go out of business for price fixing and I would still sell my normals for low prices :D

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MarkS

I personally have quite a few normal females that I use for breeding. Which means I usually end up with plenty of normal offspring. These babies are useless to me, (as in I personally have no use for them) that doesn't mean they are without value. I'll feed them up (not too much, just maintenence feeding, and I try to get them on frozen thawed as fast as possible) and generally sell them off to a pet store or wholesale them. It usually cost me more (especially in time) then they are worth. It's a good thing I'm not in this for the money. :D

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so its not going to happen. same goes for morphs. as long as the market is free, and people can freely decide to breed, and can freely decide when and how to sell their stuff, and as long as people are free to import from Ghana and Benin, there is no lower limit on price. you need to take these freedoms away, get rid of imports, get rid of small independent breeders and hobby breeders, get a cartel legalized, and form a cartel. once you have done all that and have a closed market cornered off, you can set a minimum price.

i prefer a free market, EVEN IF it means normals sometimes go for 10 dollars. thats a small price to pay, if the alternative would mean to go for a closed and cornered-off market. the freedoms you have, and that includes setting your own prices and deciding who to sell to and how, are part of what makes breeding attractive in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

The prices of normals are not driven by breeders in the US "flooding the market and underselling their animals" the market price of normals is set by the price of bulk imports from Africa. It's breeders here who are matching those prices, and we are a drop in the bucket of that supply."

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I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm not educated on where to buy cheap normals, but the cheap prices don't come from chain stores or even private reptile stores. I see these cheap perices from individuals online and at reptile shows.

I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.


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Originally Posted by Misha

I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.

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Not likely, it takes a lot more then one person to cause prices to drop, If I don't get the price I want for an albino, I just keep it. I'm not going to do that for a normal.

There is also competition from some lower priced morphs. I used to have no problem selling normals for $35 - $40. We now have pastel males, yellow belly males and some others that can be purchased for under $100 and some as low as $50. It's just something we need to deal with.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

normals have some immaterial value in that every healthy BP deserves the same kind of respect and care, and every healthy BP has he potential to be a really great pet that people can become really attached to. in that sense they are all valuable, morph or not.


but when talking about MONETARY value, its still correct to say that they are worth next to nothing. so when some people say things like "normals are worthless" or "try breeding normals first, that way you wont lose much when it doesnt work out", and other people get upset, maybe its just a misunderstanding?

and to say that for breeding, normals are worthless, is also quite correct. it may sound rude, but that doesnt make it untrue. the thing is that for normals, big exporters in Ghana or Benin pretty much set the global market price. and that price is just too low for any breeder that requires heat tape and thermostats and incubators and who has to pay employees 15 dollars per hour to compete with. you need to sell combos and morphs at premium prices in order to break even. depending on how efficient a breeder operates, every normal hatched may imply an immediate financial loss, so they try their best to avoid it by breeding morph combo to morph combo.

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You hit the nail on the head. While no animal should be disrespected and treated as disposable, normals are, financially, least valuable. As supply and demand goes, normals have hardly any value due to the surplus of animals out there. They're probably one of the easiest snakes to find and obtain.
It seems things usually go wrong when there's a misunderstanding of wording. (Or, god forbid, greed gets the best of someone and that does evolve into some form of abuse or neglect, but that's another subject.) Most of the 'higher' members here- those who run businesses breeding animals- often talk from a business point of view, and pet owners tend to misunderstand that as degrading any value of the animal. Assuming everyone here actually values life, it's safe to say that we all respect the animal as is, it's just that everyone holds their different perspectives within the hobby depending on what they do. That's just what separates a pet keeper from a breeder.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

so its not going to happen. same goes for morphs. as long as the market is free, and people can freely decide to breed, and can freely decide when and how to sell their stuff, and as long as people are free to import from Ghana and Benin, there is no lower limit on price. you need to take these freedoms away, get rid of imports, get rid of small independent breeders and hobby breeders, get a cartel legalized, and form a cartel. once you have done all that and have a closed market cornered off, you can set a minimum price.

i prefer a free market, EVEN IF it means normals sometimes go for 10 dollars. thats a small price to pay, if the alternative would mean to go for a closed and cornered-off market. the freedoms you have, and that includes setting your own prices and deciding who to sell to and how, are part of what makes breeding attractive in the first place.

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I find it odd that you quote me and take my words way out of context when I agree with you...I dont care how low my normal males sell for...If they drop below a certain point then I guess I am glad that I need feeders for my kings. That is my last input into this "conversation"

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Originally Posted by Misha

I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm not educated on where to buy cheap normals, but the cheap prices don't come from chain stores or even private reptile stores. I see these cheap perices from individuals online and at reptile shows.

I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.


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The prices you see at reptile shows and online are the WHOLESALE market values (or close to it), which is different from the RETAIL market value. When you see a normal at a private reptile store it might run $45. The owner of the store paid $10 or so for it, but they have to mark it up to cover rent (or mortgage) on the space, the cost of the display caging, heating, water, insurance, payroll, the container you take it home in etc. But the $10 wholesale price is still based off of what the big bulk importers are paying.

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Originally Posted by Badgemash

The prices you see at reptile shows and online are the WHOLESALE market values (or close to it), which is different from the RETAIL market value. When you see a normal at a private reptile store it might run $45. The owner of the store paid $10 or so for it, but they have to mark it up to cover rent (or mortgage) on the space, the cost of the display caging, heating, water, insurance, payroll, the container you take it home in etc. But the $10 wholesale price is still based off of what the big bulk importers are paying.

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So why would you wholesale the animals on a retail market? From what I've seen, normals in reptile stores go for around 75 bucks here so that's quite a markup from 10 bucks.

An average consumer doesn't buy from wholesale importers either. It's like buying Nike shoes directly from the manufacturer. I'm sure a few do it but most people pay what they cost in the store. That's why the company has capital to grow. If everyone could buy Nike shoes at wholesale, the company would have collapsed.

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Originally Posted by Misha

I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm not educated on where to buy cheap normals, but the cheap prices don't come from chain stores or even private reptile stores. I see these cheap perices from individuals online and at reptile shows.

I'm definitely not advocating for fixed pricing. Just making this clear. But if I start breeding Albinos and start selling them for a hundred bucks retail, prices will plummet very quickly.

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its easy to miss because that part of the market is not very visible.

they sell 500 or more. its all about the low prices, and getting hatchlings from Ghana to the USA or Europe alive is not trivial, its expensive. if you would only buy 100, that could already hurt the deal. also most of the hatchlings will be pre 1st shed and have never eaten. so you either need to move them fast, or you need to house them all and start feeding them after their 1st shed.

so its not something you can order online just like that. its 500 or more hatchlings, if you stretch it maybe 200, typically 1000 or more, and you either need to move them lightning fast to pet stores, or you will get into trouble because you need to house them all and start feeding them. at the collectives in Ghana where they sort them and put together the deliveries, people just arrive with bags full of hatchlings, they get dollars per hatchling, and they get more if it may be a morph or dinker, initial deals are made. you see piles of hatchlings, maybe 100 at a time, all newly hatched and did not shed and in rather good condition, and people sort them. this is where dinkers and new morphs come from. breeders from around the planet visit these places to look for new stuff, or to pick 50 hatchlings or 500 themselves, and when something fancy is discovered a few phone calls go around the world. brian barczyk would get a call, and so would mike wilbanks. or african breeders fetch them and breed them first, as was the case with bamboo. apart from the 1 in 10000 jackpot oddity, lots of reduced pattern / granite / banded and some pastels are going around.

after the dinkers and the special stuff is sorted out and initial deals are done, they put together the large shipments of hatchlings. if all goes well, all of the hatchlings, except for the ones that didnt make it or that already arrived in poor condition, are on one airplane or another within 1 to 3 days, sometimes more, after they arrive at the cooperative. hundreds of hatchlings per day move through the biggest facilities.


you can find these people online and contact them, they have websites and email, but they only have a few customers around the planet, and if you come in as the new guy and ask for just 200 hatchlings, there will be no deal and not much conversation. and advertising is pointless, why the heck would they advertise 500 pre 1st shed hatchlings that have never eaten? if you ask for 20 hatchlings, and ask for special stuff, they will give you their adress and ask you to come over, with your own plan on how to move them. and thats it. you can actually go there and buy stuff and pick your dinkers, and many breeders do just that. but they still have their own rules. basically when they see you are actually buying numbers of BPs, you get to see more. and when they know you are a regular customer and buy plenty, you get to see fancy stuff, and thats when new genes get imported.

if you are just looking for normals, and dont care about the fancy dinkers, you can just walk in and buy 50, or 100. also the BP has a different status in these areas, you can keep them in a half wild state. you provide them with a safe place, during the day they rest there, in the evening they move out for a night of hunting, in the early morning they return. farmers might buy a batch of sturdy hatchlings just to set them free on their farm. think of cats in some rural area in the USA with lots of farming. now think of a society where people are scared of cats. now think of a society where BPs slithering around are as common a sight as cats running around would be on that farm in the USA.

thats why i always cringe when i read "wild caught". its ridiculous, and it shows an incomplete understanding. a guy has pythons in his shed, they are just there. he likes them, because they kill rhodents. so he makes sure they can get into and out of the shed. and thats it for now.

now the way to do a bit more is to just pick up the females that are really building and getting close to laying eggs, and put them in boxes to lay their clutches there, and then you release the females and take the eggs and bury them in a big bucket of damp substrate. of course you need to keep it clean and dig out the eggshells and replace the substrate from time to time. then the question arises: what to do with the hatchlings? if you have a rhodent problem, or want more BPs, they are holdbacks. if you dont have a rhodent problem, but could use some extra cash, you go to the collective and sell them. and thats where the circle closes.

thats why i laugh when people say they have a "wild caught" ball python, its wrong on so many levels. first, it wasnt really wild to begin with, but already in a relationship with humans. second, it was not caught, if you see BPs often and pick up a female that will soon lay eggs, thats not really catching. its like caring for the kittens of a female cat that had their kittens on your turf. third, it has never seen the wild, it came out of an egg that was layed by a semi-wild female in a box.


there is a fundamental difference between the ball python, and other species like a green tree pythons or western hognose or green anconda or any of the others. in some cultures, the ball python is holy. in some areas, the ball python is in a semi-domesticated state. on some farms, the ball python takes on a supporting role and both the farmer and the python profit.

someone needs to do a decent documentary.... i have sources, but they are a bit, lets say, subideal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dv6EmX7dYLg <-- temple of python in Benin. its been there for a long time, BPs hang around during the day, leave at night. locals let them into their homes and sometimes feed them, or they just go hunting. its a temple built for ball pythons, complete with religious significance, full-time "monks", tourists, history, and pythons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw5ZOH3PN4o <--- unfortunately only in german, no subtitles. in the first third of the video, he tracks down a wild BP and checks the temperatures with a temp gun. in the second third of the video, you see bags of hatchlings and piles of hatchlings. from 5:33 onwards you can watch him picking out hatchlings. and he explains that when you decide to look through a batch a farmer or trapper has provided, you need to pick several of them or the sellers get grumpy. 5:33 onwards, anything that went into the blue bucket was purchased and went to southern germany, to http://www.ms-reptilien.de/index.php?cPath=3_15_16_774 . 6:40 onwards you see racks of tubs that are filled with water and BP hatchlings, its a quarantine and short-term storage facilty. it belongs to an exporter, so thats where the big shipments are put together, he buys and cleans and provides the with water and sorts, and when the rack is full it all goes somewhere. 7:40 onwards, incubator Ghana-style. just a big concrete box where eggs get buried in substrate. 8:30 is the loot, 150 ball pythons, all of them hand picked and dinker material, going on a plane to Germany the same day. one interesting thing he mentioned: he only picked dinkers/specials, all picked by him personally, and he said you pay 10 times more for that, compared to buying the leftover normals. so based on what he says, for the same price he could have purchased 1500 normal BPs. and all of the 150 he purchased are something, high contrast or reduced pattern or striped or granite.

to be fair, the breeder in the second video, the Ghana video, really is professional and takes care of all of his animals, he is also breeding in southern Germany and has albino pieds and mahogany and GHI and stuff. he often goes to Ghana and buys a few hundred hatchlings, but he does house and feed them all in Germany and sells them well-started. he is just the one breeder (and also an importer and mover) with the BALLS to put this all on video.


okay, i see i have writen an essay, i hope its interesting. and i hope, together with the video evidence, that this clarifies why the price for normals is set at such a low price. unless you ban imports. Certain parts of the market are rarely seen, just because its not that pretty to look at, or because there are so few potential customers that it makes more sense to email them directly.

If you want something where the lowest price is rather high, look at different species. in chameleons, you have REAL wild-caught, really robbed from nature by trappers and poachers, and breeding is so difficult that captive bred ones are WORTH MORE than the wild-caught ones. here captive bred is worth MORE, because poachers and trappers spend hours until they find one. and captive breds are free of parasites, do better in captivity, breed better, and make better pets. so when its really a problem for you that normal BPs only cost 10 dollars, breed green tree pythons or chameleons or something, where a plain old normal can fetch 200 dollars or more. jacksons chameleons or something. either REALLY wild caught by a poacher, or, higher price and better quality, from a breeder.

BPs are different. semi-wild, in some areas partly domesticated, lots of human interaction, they will never go extinct, and noone really goes hunting for something that can, in some areas, be picked up at any farm.