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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Okay I understand what you are getting at, but the way that you have worded it has completely confused me.

An Atheist does not believe there is not a higher power.

An Atheist does not believe there is a higher power.

The first is a double negative, which translates to: An Atheist does believe there is a higher power. Which is completely contradictory.

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"An Atheist does not believe there is not a higher power" is not a double negative. Its basic logic that I can't really break down further.

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

So should I instead say:

Christians believe a higher power exists.

Atheists believe no higher power exists.

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You should say "Christians believe a higher power exists.

Atheists do not believe a higher power exists."

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

Also, you can't say something like this:

And expect me to understand what you mean.

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That was a type I ment to say "I don't believe either until you present evidence."

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Originally Posted by Kaorte

I am really trying to understand your point, but I'm just not getting it. I didn't mean to misrepresent atheism, as I am one myself. It seems like we are just getting down to semantics now.

I was breaking it down into two parts, Those who believe in the existence of god and those who do not, for the sake of simplicity. Why are these not opposites?

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Those are opposites. You are mixing up a single position on one claim with, a positions on two claims. "There is a god," is a claim that I don't believe. That makes me an atheist. A person who does believe is a theist. "There is no god," is another claim. I don't believe that either. There is no word for that because its an impossible claim to prove. You can't prove there are no gods in the universe. You haven't looked everywhere in the universe. Theists can't even agree on a definition for what a god would be.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

You can't prove there are no gods in the universe. You haven't looked everywhere in the universe. Theists can't even agree on a definition for what a god would be.

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Well, that is true that we can not prove somethings non existence, other then to say.....it does not exist. We definitely can not say if it exists or does not if no definition is placed.

I always figured a deity was something around the following. Consciousness without materiel form, life without birth or death, all powerful and all knowing. Which are all contradictions and/or negations of biological functions.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

Atheism is a position on belief and agnosticism is a position on knowledge.

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Lol you cannot say that agnosticism is a position based on knowledge. You cannot "know" either way. We can BELIEVE in God or NOT BELIEVE in God (or any gods for that matter). You can't say "I know God doesn't exist" in the same way a believer can't say "I know God exists". There is information both for or against God. Therefor you must have an opinion or BELIEF.


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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

I always figured a deity was something around the following. Consciousness without materiel form, life without birth or death, all powerful and all knowing. Which are all contradictions and/or negations of biological functions.

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isn't life being here in the first place (spontaneous generation) a contradiction of biological function?

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Originally Posted by creepin

isn't life being here in the first place (spontaneous generation) a contradiction of biological function?

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How so?

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Originally Posted by interloc

Lol you cannot say that agnosticism is a position based on knowledge. You cannot "know" either way. We can BELIEVE in God or NOT BELIEVE in God (or any gods for that matter). You can't say "I know God doesn't exist" in the same way a believer can't say "I know God exists". There is information both for or against God. Therefor you must have an opinion or BELIEF.


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I can say that agnosticism is a position ON knowledge. That's what the word means. "a" means without and "gnostic" means knowledge. Without knowledge, just like a-theist means without god. I am an agnostic atheist. That means I don't know whether or not any gods exist and I don't believe any gods exist. What you can't do is say "I don't know" when I ask you what you believe. Do you understand. When someone says "Do you believe in God," the response "I don't know." Means you don't know what you believe which is stupid. No one asked you if you know God exists.

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

How so?

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life only comes from other living things. it does not generate itself (from everything we've observed). we haven't been able to recreate "spontaneous" generation, yet it must have happened on its own randomly (if you believe a god didn't intervene). therefore, somewhere down the line, whether you believe in a god or not, something contradicted biological function.

i'm not arguing for or against god. i have my own beliefs. i just enjoy getting lost in the rabbit hole and thinking as deep as possible. plus i love a good debate :P

"This is your last chance. After this, there is no turning back. You take the blue pill -- the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill -- you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes."

"I'm trying to free your mind, Neo. But I can only show you the door. You're the one that has to walk through it." - The Matrix, copyright Warner Brothers 1999-2012.

I'm thinking that the definitions of agnostic and atheist are a bit blurry in some cases.

To me an agnostic "I don't know that any gods exist"
To me a atheist "No gods exist"

Because that's what they believe, neither usually state it as facts. I could say that I believe a invisible unicorn exists, and you can't prove it doesn't exist. So I can believe in it all I like. If I start insisting that you have to put up decorations, call off events or work or start obeying my invisible unicorn's decrees regarding blue cupcakes being ILLEGAL and IMMORAL, then it starts infringing on that whole "Freedom of Religion" thing.

And I love debating the nuances and aspects of all of it. I have discussions I'd like to have with Christian believers, but most seem to wig out and fall back to "YOU HAVE NO FAITH" as soon as I try.