Put it down already

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Originally Posted by jglass38

I don't understand exactly what your issue is with cutting. There is a big difference between a breeder that cuts eggs and one that cuts eggs and pulls the babies out before they are ready. I cut eggs. Every clutch, every time. I can guarantee you that the hatchlings won't come out until they are ready, regardless of what day I cut. I would never pull them out of the egg though.

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OK but do you cut before day 54? or closer to day 60? Im pretty sure this guy was cutting the eggs right around day 50. Im just not thinking thats a good idea. The runt i lost did stay in his egg for almost 3 days but he still did not absorb any of the yolk. I didnt cut his egg until after the other 2 had pipped on day 56 i believe.

How do you feel about the people who open up the entire top of the egg? To the point of actually removing most of the top of the egg? Ive seen pics people posted of this. Wouldnt that allow the yolk and to dry out too fast?

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Originally Posted by Draigess

OK but do you cut before day 54? or closer to day 60? Im pretty sure this guy was cutting the eggs right around day 50. Im just not thinking thats a good idea. The runt i lost did stay in his egg for almost 3 days but he still did not absorb any of the yolk. I didnt cut his egg until after the other 2 had pipped on day 56 i believe.

How do you feel about the people who open up the entire top of the egg? To the point of actually removing most of the top of the egg? Ive seen pics people posted of this. Wouldnt that allow the yolk and to dry out too fast?

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I cut when I feel like it's safe to cut. Normally that is day 50-52 or so. I make a small flap in the egg. I get to satisfy my curiosity by seeing what is inside. I then put the eggs back in the incubator. Around day 56 or so I cut a larger opening. I haven't noticed anything drying out or babies that are small or dehydrated. All of them eat and shed normally. If I had concerns, I wouldn't do it. Cutting an egg correctly is not going to keep the animal from absorbing any nutrients. Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. I think everyone should do whatever they feel comfortable with. If that means waiting until the first one pips, that is great. If it means cutting at day 48, that is cool too. I certainly wouldn't condemn someone for doing it. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready. If my egg cutting makes me a bad guy in someone's book then I believe they haven't looked around enough or read enough threads and seen what a real bad guy looks like. Someone who sends sick or poorly packaged animals. Someone that sends empty boxes or completely scams someone out of animals or money. Those are the bad guys in this hobby, not someone who cuts an egg before an arbitrary day, whether it's 54, 56, 58 or 60.

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Originally Posted by jglass38

Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready.

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Well at least we agree on something.

I don't breed snakes yet but within 2-3 years I will be.

I having nothing against culling animals when neccesary. If I end up ever producing an animal that simply doesn't thrive and has no "will" to do so it will end up in my fridge and then my freezer (and I'll probably cry like a baby when I do it).

As for selling animals with obvious defects (one eye, no eyes, minor- severe kinks) it is a very poor practice indeed. Even worse is they are offered cheaper making it convenient for irresponsible breeders to buy. I believe animals like this should either go to a good friend who wouldn't breed it, be kept, or be put down. By selling animals like this you are only risking it being bred by someone.

Spiders are an interesting one. Imho, a bit of wobbling/tweaked behavior is to be expected but I would never breed a spider who consistently shows me extreme wobbling, corkscrewing, spinning.

On a side note- I see nothing wrong with cutting eggs once one has pipped. The snake's will come out when they are ready on their terms.

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I cut when I feel like it's safe to cut. Normally that is day 50-52 or so. I make a small flap in the egg. I get to satisfy my curiosity by seeing what is inside. I then put the eggs back in the incubator. Around day 56 or so I cut a larger opening. I haven't noticed anything drying out or babies that are small or dehydrated. All of them eat and shed normally. If I had concerns, I wouldn't do it. Cutting an egg correctly is not going to keep the animal from absorbing any nutrients. Trying to reposition an animal in the egg to see pattern or color or generally messing with it could cause problems. I think everyone should do whatever they feel comfortable with. If that means waiting until the first one pips, that is great. If it means cutting at day 48, that is cool too. I certainly wouldn't condemn someone for doing it. Where I draw the line is cutting and forcibly removing a hatchling from the egg before it's ready. If my egg cutting makes me a bad guy in someone's book then I believe they haven't looked around enough or read enough threads and seen what a real bad guy looks like. Someone who sends sick or poorly packaged animals. Someone that sends empty boxes or completely scams someone out of animals or money. Those are the bad guys in this hobby, not someone who cuts an egg before an arbitrary day, whether it's 54, 56, 58 or 60.

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I agree 100%!

I cut all my eggs at Day 52, and I have no moral angst about doing so. I've seen at another breeder's location, two perfectly formed babies, that were unable to pip their eggs that drowned in their eggs - and you could see, when their eggs were opened, how they had thrashed about so much, they had ripped all the blood vessels off the top of the egg.

To me, that seems much more cruel, to allow a baby to panic to death and drown when it's unable to pip its egg. That seems terribly inhumane to me.

Some might say - they may not have been intended to make it then. And maybe they were intended to make it. Who's to say that something about the artificial incubation process didn't make that egg just a bit too tough for that baby to come out.

I made a choice that day that I will cut all my eggs on Day 52. Pipped or not. The ONLY time I've pulled a baby out of the egg was when I saw that their umbilicus was twisted around their body. I got them enough out of the egg to untwist, and put them right back in the egg, where they stayed until they absorbed the yolk.

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Originally Posted by kellysballs

Okay here is how I feel about the issue.
Now most breeders on here are stating that they cull severly deformed animals, and all of us pretty much agree that the deformed animal should not be bred. Here is the question...What about the parents, grandparents and siblings of these animals.

If as stated before the deformed animal may pass on the trait, that means it aquired the trait in the first place from one or more of it's parents or grandparents, and that it's siblings may also carry the deformed trait hidden away in their genes. So unless you cull the entire line that produced the deformity you are adding possible carriers of deformities on to future generations.

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That seems a touch excessive, though, don't you think? Now I agree if it becomes a yearly thing. If the same pair is throwing eyeless, kinked, or otherwise "grossly" deformed babies every season then they should never be paired together again. If one of that pair keeps throwing deformed babies with other snakes, then that snake should be retired from breeding. I'd go so far as to say the retired snake should never be sold; it becomes the breeder's responsibility to keep that snake from ever having the chance of reproducing again.

Culling an entire line because of one deformed baby doesn't make sense to me. That one baby lost the genetic lottery and happened to get a mash of poor genes, or a complication in the egg, and so ended up with a bad spine (or whatever else). If the parents and all other siblings are healthy then it's obviously not a dominant defect getting thrown around.

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Originally Posted by Dalishar

Culling an entire line because of one deformed baby doesn't make sense to me. That one baby lost the genetic lottery and happened to get a mash of poor genes, or a complication in the egg, and so ended up with a bad spine (or whatever else). If the parents and all other siblings are healthy then it's obviously not a dominant defect getting thrown around.

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Hmmm, not a snake but related.

I've been breeding rats on a small scale for years and gearing up for the last several months. I have a very standard policy which I will explain in a moment.

I can reach into any tub of rats I have bare handed, pull pinks, move fuzzies, remove adult by the body or tail and NEVER get bit.

I don't get bit because of my policy.

IF a rat bites me, it is then food. If it is a mother, her babies are food. Same for a male, bite-food.

Knock on wood, I can't remember the last time I had a rat bite me.

I have heard many tales of rats that bite from people who don't cull the biters.

It bears thought.

I have had prior animal breeding experience in breeding & culling. Holland Lops (which I breed for awhile have an AMAZINGLY high cull rate as the dwarf gene is homozygous lethal). There's an easy solution to reduce the 50% adv cull rate; use bigger does & the small typey bucks. You don't produce as many champs that way, but you do reduce the culls down to about 1 in 4. To have culling be such a normal event is one of the reasons I got out of rabbits.

Working with snakes, proper husbandry results in way less culls. Before I bred snakes I discussed with my herp vet who also keeps snakes & other reptiles, the best way to "put one to sleep" so I'd know. And freezing is the method I use here if need be.

I do pick my morphs based on what I think I can handle. I pass on T+ Albino projects although I love the morph. But even being selective, you get tangled babies, you get minor defects... and you get freezer pets as Kevin at NERD calls 'em. I've had 3 culls to date, but they all were for the best interests of the animal.

I will not hesitate to cull, I also will give an animal that has the ability to feed/function/defecate a chance. A local friend brought in a spider, a one-eyed snake that also had some kinking- "Can you help her?", he said.

I told him we could try. After 2 assist-feedings she defecated & peed. She also lost most of the kinking that was from being tangled. After 3 months of assist feeding she began to take FT off tongs on her own. Her name is Alli & she is his daughter's pet.

I will say Alli was in such bad shape that, had she hatched here, IDK... but helping someone else I did see 1st hand just how resilient these babies can be. It's given me a better idea of what can & can't heal. So if I think an animal has a chance I'll give it- but I won't let something suffer that has no chance either.

It's a tough call, but one as a breeder we all will have to face.

I think there's two things being discussed.
Culling and Mercy killing.
I will always agree with putting an animal down as a mercy.
Culling for perfection I disagree with. In other words, if a pastel isn't bright enough, or a albino isn't crisp enough, putting the baby in the freezer I think is wrong.
Culling for defects I can agree with. Especially defects that affect the spine. I will not say that YOU should cull your defective hatchlings. But I've culled some here, that would not live(even with special care).
I currantly have some kinked hatchlings. My miracle clutch was damaged. The same heat that caused the others to lay slugs, must have affected the 'good clutch' I got too. Out of 5 eggs, one was a train wreck, and culled immediately. One had the "stepped on" look on one spot midway. Two have tail tip kinks, and one looks fine. Right now I have a call in to the local vet university to see if anyone is interested in a kinked hatchling for study(either the frozen one or the still living one). If not, I may euthanize the severe one. The tail tips I'll either keep or give as pets, and the normal looking one MIGHT be sold.. IF he eats for a long time, and develops normally. But I happen to know there was a severe heat issue that caused other issues with other snakes at the same time. I don't have to wonder "Is it from mom or dad?"

So.. after I've rambled on.. I do agree with culling, when something's wrong.

Oh.. and normally I cut eggs after one pips. This clutch took so long that I cut the eggs, at day 61. The babys still took a week before they had all emerged. You can't rush them out of the egg, cutting or no.

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Originally Posted by h00blah

i would probably do EVERYTHING in my power to keep my babies alive, bc if YOU yourself put your hard work, dedication, time, and sweat into raising those adults to breed, praying for fertilized eggs, incubating those eggs, monitoring them closely, then awaiting that adorable little BP head to poke its head at you and greet u, rite there, uve gotten attached to the animal and u WILL do wut u need to in order to save it.

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Wow, no offense to you personally my friend, but in this quote I think you have pretty much summed up everything I am talking about to a T.

Why would you do whatever you have to in order to "save it?" Are you the only being in this situation that matters? hint... you have feelings... you feel pain.. you suffer... what about the snake?

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Originally Posted by Jay_Bunny

It is my first year breeding ball pythons and I'm guessing my issue with my hatchling contributed to your need to post this thread. So I feel I need to respond.

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Don't flatter yourself. Although I must admit, you did remind me of the subject.

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Originally Posted by Eventide

I believe in giving an animal every chance possible to live. Doesn't matter if the snake has one eye, no eyes, kinks--whatever. It's not the snake's fault it's deformed.

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Another fine example of what this thread is all about. Not sure who said it but someone mentioned that natural selection is thrown out the window when snakes are intentionally bred. Your right... in the scheme of things it is not the snakes fault it's deformed.... it's the breeders fault. Exactly why it is the breeders responsibility to handle the problem they created.

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Originally Posted by kellysballs

I understand that there can be incubation issues but you can't say that all 8ball duck bills

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Just curious as to why you chose to call out a particular breeder on this.... Keep in mind a many people here know this breeder personally. can you say the same?