Big snakes, small enclosures.

So a chimpanzee that is stuffed in a box for three years of its life, is perfectly ok once it goes somewhere else, and eats poops and acts normal?

Im just not getting your reasoning here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

So a chimpanzee that is stuffed in a box for three years of its life, is perfectly ok once it goes somewhere else, and eats poops and acts normal?

---

C'mon Patrick, that's Apples and Oranges and you know it.

Is it really though?


Im not sayin this person is right or this person is wrong, because I have NEVER been to his place.

Im just sayin...

These are valid points. From valid potential customers.

Everyone is a potential customer....so therefore every question should be answered right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AaronP

The condition your animal arrives in reflects the conditions it lived in. If the snake, eats, poops, and acts normal with no parasites or illnesses then what else can you ask for?

---

Oh? Some snakes handle nastier conditions better than others, species wise. It doesn't necessarily have to contain external parasites to have lived in a nasty condition. I've seen beautiful snakes come from the most horrid conditions, eat upon arrival, and act normal. That point remains invalid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Everyone is a potential customer....so therefore every question should be answered right?

---

Actually, no.

Some are just to bait you.

Some are from competitors.

Some are just stupid.

Some are from people you don't care enough about to answer.

Some are just not worth the time to ask given the asker or the question itself and what it is truly meant to elicit.

I imagine dutch is in school but anyone else who cared could have called Brian, be they for or against this current tangent on keeping big snakes in small tubs.

But then, to do that, would either prove one wrong or right and put an end to this thrilling and intellectually stimulating ongoing activity in perpetuating mountains out of molehills.

Pattimuss, there ain't no fair this side of heaven and I don't believe in that myself soooooo, I don't think you'll be finding it.

If this was ANYOTHER breeder in question...they would have been slammed for any little minor inconsistency

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Am I the only one here seeing a Admin mock a member?

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I was posting as a member of this forum, I am allowed to have my own opinion and participate as a member as well. And I did find his reasoning rather amusing. Slay me for being human.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

Oh? Some snakes handle nastier conditions better than others, species wise. It doesn't necessarily have to contain external parasites to have lived in a nasty condition. I've seen beautiful snakes come from the most horrid conditions, eat upon arrival, and act normal. That point remains invalid.

---

This is true.

If you choose to not do business with a breeder for any reason. I understand that 100%. We all have standards that we like to uphold when we give our business to someone. These standards can range for everyone from the way the animals are fed to the way they are house or shipped.

Your perfectly entitled to do business with those breeders you choose. However to demand that a businessman come on our forums and justify themselves to anyone is not only very bold but speaks of an ego that needs to be checked.

Who are we to approach any professional full time business man from aspect of the industry and demand that they plead their case with us.

If you have questions about how a breeder operates call them, talk with them, and make your decision on whether you wish to do business with them.

When did the internet forums become the scale on which all breeders are weighed.

I understand the concerns that have been voiced here. They are valid to each of you.

I definetaly agree that if a customer has those questions, that is it perfectly fine to call up and discuss them. The fact of the matter is, Brian isnt going to lose customers, or lose business because of people bashing him on a forum. Really...I just think people like to argue. Its what happens on forums....everyone has wide ranges of opinions. If you arent satisfied with how he runs things, don't purchase anything from him..if you are happy, become or stay a customer. Simple as that, nothing is going to change;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CeraDigital

I've seen beautiful snakes come from the most horrid conditions, eat upon arrival, and act normal. That point remains invalid.

---

Well I personally haven't seen this, so I'm basing my comment on my own personal experiences, which have shown that poor conditions result in animals in poor condition, but that is my opinion.

Hi,

I have to tell you Pat - I don't see bear baiting.

I'm not overly keen on the allegation of staff bias either - but if that's your opinion after reading all of this then I certainly can't change your mind.

You are just as entitled to your opinions as the rest of the members - including the staff. We would never let the personal opinions affect how we enforce the rules but we are still allowed to have them and express them within the framework of the rules if we want to.

Although I have to ask - you don't see any points to ponder in the fact that the people defending him have dealt with him or visited his facility and the most voiciferous people throwing around the wilder of the allegations have done neither?

The initial post asked a specific question and the opinions on that have been mixed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jp-reptiles

if you dont have the space to house 40 retics, rocks and burms
you shouldnt have them, retics, rocks and burms dont need extreme big cages but the way brian does it is animalcruelty in my eyes........
its all about breeding/popularity and lots of money i think....

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

With the rock pythons, I'll agree. The caging isn't too small. It is just right. I've kept and bred Rocks for quite a while.

---

But once started the thread has broadened and meandered into the question of monitors with reasons given for and against the use of feeding cages.

Then there are the allegations that Brian was being less than honest when he stated the housing was temporary in another example. I honestly do not think that was called for. Does he have a reputaion for dishonesty that I don't know about?

You say if it was any other breeder they would be slammed for any minor inconsistency - could you link me to any thread where that has happened on the site in the past?

This site has always tried to avoid the spats against breeders or other websites wherever possible from what I have seen.

It's beginning to remind me of a witch hunt or an old mangy dog trying to chew a bone with broken down teeth - he just keeps moving it around trying to find a weak spot.

I don't know a thing about monitors or how they should be caged and fed so have nothing to add to that discussion at all. But I argue with people enough to know that when you change the focus or thrust of the argument but keep the same target then the argument is and always was irrelevant and you start looking for the motivation for the continued attack.

I don't know what the xchange rate is for two cents so you can have a quid if you like. :P


dr del

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

If you choose to not do business with a breeder for any reason. I understand that 100%. We all have standards that we like to uphold when we give our business to someone. These standards can range for everyone from the way the animals are fed to the way they are house or shipped.

Your perfectly entitled to do business with those breeders you choose. However to demand that a businessman come on our forums and justify themselves to anyone is not only very bold but speaks of an ego that needs to be checked.

Who are we to approach any professional full time business man from aspect of the industry and demand that they plead their case with us.

If you have questions about how a breeder operates call them, talk with them, and make your decision on whether you wish to do business with them.

When did the internet forums become the scale on which all breeders are weighed.

I understand the concerns that have been voiced here. They are valid to each of you.

---

He came to the forum of his own free will, and posted said videos that open up questionability towards his husbandry with his animals. We are who we are. The reputation of the breeder is not only made by themselves, but it is also made by the customers who had bought from them.

Internet, and internet forums actually changed the face of the reptile industry, and aided the growth of the reptile hobby. It is no different than something such as the BBB. It makes it much simpler for them to express their customer service. Why wouldn't a thread full of reptile keepers and enthusiasts possibly wanting to purchase an animal, be allowed to inquire on the upkeep and caging of said animals?

Brian should have the benefit of the doubt here. I have never heard one single reason why he should not.

The only reputation he has is a good one.

So you guys saw what amounts to a messy kitchen. What makes you think, ASS ume, that it is always that way?

Brian, from now on, clean house BEFORE you shoot video, not all the yocals get it.

And before anyone says it, I am not friends with Brian, nor have I been a customer in many years, though I have known him for 20 years, maybe a bit more. He's got all the qualities I'd look for in a friend and were he closer, allowing to actually build a friendship, I'd be proud to call him one.

I got no dog in this fight, I just see a bunch of folks demanding stuff from a good guy in a manner that would irritate me were it directed my way and which, in this instance, I disagree with the use of. I don't think he warrants the type of attention he's getting from some folks here.

Pattimuss, IF he were even remotely rumored to be a scumbag there is no way some of us would be, poorly, trying to back him up, me in particular. It's not favoritism, it's good past business and friends, who can be biased but this must be accepted, backing a good guy. It's what we all hope will happen when someone says crap about us when we aren't there to defend against it.

Sort of like you did for me on that site with that guy who's too dumb to know how stupid he really is, truly in a league all his own, you know?

You had my back, some here have Brians, but it is certainly not favoritism. I suspect that staff here, had they nothing good to say, would simply say nothing at all. Maybe not, but that's my suspicion and I'm sticking to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

I have to tell you Pat - I don't see bear baiting.

---

I see it. Any other member would have been nailed with infractions for it. Correct? They would have also been nailed with negative reps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

You say if it was any other breeder they would be slammed for any minor inconsistency - could you link me to any thread where that has happened on the site in the past?

---

I'll give you one simple name. Wes Harris. Wes did not crash the market. His partner did. His partner was posting his breeder animals for sale, yet your staff ripped him a part, as well as members. For what? His husbandry was correct. His animals were very healthy. The only thing anyone had on him was that his partner, not Wes, was crashing markets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

This site has always tried to avoid the spats against breeders or other websites wherever possible from what I have seen.

---

I've seen otherwise. I've been here around 4 years, and I've seen numerous breeders being attacked and persecuted, even when defending themselves, with both staff and members against them. Valid reasons for inquiring were brought up here, and elsewhere for a while, and yet go unanswered.

As for JP's answer vs. mine. European views on giant husbandry differs from Americans. It's tat simple. They're not cramping their animals in smaller enclosures than needed, yet still they do not give them ridiculous room sized enclosures. He may feel that the cage may be too small. That would be his decision. The cages are just right for the size. As for the monitors, it is different. Feeding cages are a good way for personal injury, or injury to the animal. Cages that small for monitors are in fact that....small....a little too small....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You had my back, some here have Brians, but it is certainly not favoritism. I suspect that staff here, had they nothing good to say, would simply say nothing at all. Maybe not, but that's my suspicion and I'm sticking to it.

---

Wilomn, no strike against you, but I am not bashing, nor taking a jab at Brian. I simply see some inquiries that should be answered. Some of the questions asked have went unanswered for a while now, and ignored. Not only by beginning hobbyists, but experienced monitor keepers who have been doing such for well over a decade. Bad business in my views. I've asked him before, with no reply.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

He came to the forum of his own free will, and posted said videos that open up questionably towards his husbandry with his animals. We are who we are.

---

I agree and yet I have yet to see a post (unless I missed it) say's.. "I saw the video and called Brian because I was in the process of buying an animal from him..Heres what he said.."

Quote:

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The reputation of the breeder is not only made by themselves, but it is also made by the customers who had bought from them.

---

And yet Brian is one of the most consistently profitable breeders on the face of the earth. So I'd say his reputation is secured by said customers from the last 25 years.

Quote:

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Internet, and internet forums actually changed the face of the reptile industry, and aided the growth of the reptile hobby. It is no different than something such as the BBB. It makes it much simpler for them to express their customer service.

---

I agree it has both for the good and the bad..

Quote:

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Why wouldn't a thread full of reptile keepers and enthusiasts possibly wanting to purchase an animal, be allowed to inquire on the upkeep and caging of said animals?

---

I never said you weren't...however why would a group of truly concerned reptile keepers and possible customer if they are seriously concerned not pose these questions and accusations on an internet forum and not to the person in question..I have a theory.

1: They lack the true concern and are merely wanting to stir the pot.

2: They lack the intestinal fortitude to make the same accusations in person they do behind the keyboard..

Even lets say for a moment Brian is doing a horrid thing to these animals. Who has called him to pose these concerns to him personally.

I want to hear from you..Who has been so upset by what they saw they called Brian???

Wow, do people really have nothing better to do then critique my caging?? I only have about 8 big pythons in my collection. I used to work with many more in the past. I had a nice viv for a big monitor that she would destroy every time I fed her. So I used to use a cage to feed her in. I only had the one big monitor. I have since got rid of it because it was too hard to care for in my collection. I have spent 23 years loving and caring for animals, that doesn't mean that I should get a free pass, but I can't believe that anyone that knows me or how I feel about animals would ever accuse me of doing anything but what I think is right for the animals. The only difference between me and all the other big breeders is that we put on a web show that is meant to enrich the community. I work hard at having people get excited about a hobby that I have loved for ever. I'll be honest with all the B.S. that has followed me around this past month or so I am having a hard time wanting to continue on with this open lifestyle. I make nothing off it, and it cost me a ton of money and time and all it seems to be doing is putting a bullseye on my back. Do you think that other breeders have zoo vivs that they keep their animals in?? They just haven't opened their lives up for everyone to see. I thought it was the right thing to do for the community. I'm starting to reconsider. I don't want to continue this back and forth in this thread, I need to care for animals not get pulled into an forum war. I respect anyones opinions, but please don't accuse me of lying or not caring for my animals. I can assure you that there is nobody that I know that makes more bad finacial decisions just so my animals get better care then what I do. I will always sacrifice money for the better of the animal. My life is my animals and if I did this for the money I would have got out of the business by now. I'll be totally honest, with all the lies like I'm trying to put the small breeders out of business or that I don't care for my animals or whatever the rumor is for the day. It is sucking the enjoyment that I have had for the hobby for so long. I don't want this to happen and I certainly didn't do anything to deserve it other then dedicate my life to animals. The hundreds of hours I spend responding to every e-mail about people that are getting their first snake or ones that have a problem with a snake even if they have a hundred of them. I don't get anything out of it, but trying to help the community. Try to get a return e-mail from most big breeders about a pastel you bought from someone else. See how many will return them?? I do it because I care about the animals whether they are mine or someone else's. I don't need a metal, but I would like a little respect for all that I try to do. I don't deserve respect, I feel I have earned it. I need to really think about the future of this more public life that I have decided to take. I don't know if it's worth it???? Brian(BHB)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

I want to hear from you..Who has been so upset by what they saw they called Brian???

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I have, as I've stated. Via phone call, talking to Brian, I've asked about monitor caging he uses, and I was told he would get me a picture. I'm still waiting. THIS is why I am here posting. I want my inquiry answered as do others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BHB

Wow, do people really have nothing better to do then critique my caging?? I only have about 8 big pythons in my collection. I used to work with many more in the past. I had a nice viv for a big monitor that she would destroy every time I fed her. So I used to use a cage to feed her in. I only had the one big monitor. I have since got rid of it because it was too hard to care for in my collection. I have spent 23 years loving and caring for animals, that doesn't mean that I should get a free pass, but I can't believe that anyone that knows me or how I feel about animals would ever accuse me of doing anything but what I think is right for the animals. The only difference between me and all the other big breeders is that we put on a web show that is meant to enrich the community. I work hard at having people get excited about a hobby that I have loved for ever. I'll be honest with all the B.S. that has followed me around this past month or so I am having a hard time wanting to continue on with this open lifestyle. I make nothing off it, and it cost me a ton of money and time and all it seems to be doing is putting a bullseye on my back. Do you think that other breeders have zoo vivs that they keep their animals in?? They just haven't opened their lives up for everyone to see. I thought it was the right thing to do for the community. I'm starting to reconsider. I don't want to continue this back and forth in this thread, I need to care for animals not get pulled into an forum war. I respect anyones opinions, but please don't accuse me of lying or not caring for my animals. I can assure you that there is nobody that I know that makes more bad finacial decisions just so my animals get better care then what I do. I will always sacrifice money for the better of the animal. My life is my animals and if I did this for the money I would have got out of the business by now. I'll be totally honest, with all the lies like I'm trying to put the small breeders out of business or that I don't care for my animals or whatever the rumor is for the day. It is sucking the enjoyment that I have had for the hobby for so long. I don't want this to happen and I certainly didn't do anything to deserve it other then dedicate my life to animals. The hundreds of hours I spend responding to every e-mail about people that are getting their first snake or ones that have a problem with a snake even if they have a hundred of them. I don't get anything out of it, but trying to help the community. Try to get a return e-mail from most big breeders about a pastel you bought from someone else. See how many will return them?? I do it because I care about the animals whether they are mine or someone else's. I don't need a metal, but I would like a little respect for all that I try to do. I don't deserve respect, I feel I have earned it. I need to really think about the future of this more public life that I have decided to take. I don't know if it's worth it???? Brian(BHB)

---

Brian, I do tip my hat to you for the publicity of your animals and opening your facility to the simple hobbyists. I did not come here to bash you. I simple ask if you would post the pictures of your monitor caging. Not the "feeding cages". It would put a lot of questions to rest....

One last thing, I agree nobody has called or e-mailed me with concerns. If you need answers come to me, not to a forum to try to make me look bad. I don't check these forums everyday, the only way that I knew about this is several people contacted me about it. I will never avoid a question or not live up to my responsibility. I make mistakes all the time. I have killed animals by accident, I'm not perfect and never say that I am. I also open my collection to everyone to watch on video, but also to anyone that visits. I had 40 people over on saturday, they looked at every cage they wanted too. I don't keep secrets, so if you want to know contact me! Give me that respect. bhb@comcast.net I'll always be happy to answer your concerns, Brian(BHB)

Wow I honestly didn't expect Brian to post, that said, he shouldn't have had to post.

What I realized just a moment ago, which is hilarious to me, is that people were arguing about the Monitor's cage size and relating that to buying from Brian, when that Monitor (a Savannah Monitor if I remember right) was Brian's pet. And what's funnier is that if the OP would have called / E-mailed Brian in the first place (or anyone of us for that matter) we'd know that he doesn't even have the animal any longer.

Funny no?

Scrape them off and move on Brian. I can tell you that it most definitely is NOT worth it. The only way to win this game is to not play!!! Let them kick around someone else for a while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrick Long

Its obvious that the Admins here are all buddy buddy with Brian, so why wouldnt they "be happy with the quality of their animals".

---

Btw, Patrick, I am not buddy/buddy with Brian, as you seem to believe. I've had one phone conversation with him about HR669 and to date, have not purchased any animals from him. I hope to one day, but I haven't yet.

Other than that, I've only talked to him at shows, and even that was briefly.

I participated in this thread, because I can't believe how quickly people want to draw and quarter the man. Because as an observer, that's what I see.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

I see it. Any other member would have been nailed with infractions for it. Correct? They would have also been nailed with negative reps.

---

For the same question I asked with a laughing smilie? Uh...no, they wouldn't have. If that were true, Wes would be infracted right on out of here by now with some of his posts (no offense to Wes).

You both know that as a staff we are as fair if not more fair than any other internet forum out there.

Next time I'll remember that you guys are a little thin skinned when I compose my posts to you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rabernet

For the same question I asked with a laughing smilie? Uh...no, they wouldn't have. If that were true, Wes would be infracted right on out of here by now with some of his posts (no offense to Wes).

You both know that as a staff we are as fair if not more fair than any other internet forum out there.

Next time I'll remember that you guys are a little thin skinned when I compose my posts to you.

---

Actually, no. I'd caught infractions for less. I've been asked to remove things from my signatures, been disqualified from photo contests, the list goes on and on...and for what? If you believe you're more fair than any other internet forum...maybe you should hang out on more forums.

As for the thin skinned comment. It seems we're not the only ones ;) That could be taken as more bear baiting, no? You and your staff seem to flip things around on other members, myself included. Call things bear baiting, poking sticks, etc... When you claim to be a fair forum. What about the staff themselves. From what I've seen with a select few out of the staff, I've seen the opposite behavior...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

Actually, no. I'd caught infractions for less. I've been asked to remove things from my signatures, been disqualified from photo contests, the list goes on and on...and for what? If you believe you're more fair than any other internet forum...maybe you should hang out on more forums.

As for the thin skinned comment. It seems we're not the only ones ;) That could be taken as more bear baiting, no? You and your staff seem to flip things around on other members, myself included. Call things bear baiting, poking sticks, etc... When you claim to be a fair forum. What about the staff themselves. From what I've seen with a select few out of the staff, I've seen the opposite behavior...

---

Anyone done throwing poo around? As littleindiangirl once told me "Take it to PM".

Or you could always utilize the ignore feature in your UserCP. :)

Lets all take a step back for just a second..

Take a deep breath and think long and hard before jumping off this ledge..

The staff doesn't give infractions lightly by any means. It may seem this way but please take my word for it, infractions are not a haphazard decision.

So before anyone continues down this path lets all take a long slow look at what we may be implying when it comes to staff or Admin.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Freakie_frog

Lets all take a step back for just a second..

Take a deep breath and think long and hard before jumping off this ledge..

The staff doesn't give infractions lightly by any means. It may seem this way but please take my word for it, infractions are not a haphazard decision.

So before anyone continues down this path lets all take a long slow look at what we may be implying when it comes to staff or Admin.

---

I've seen otherwise, as have other members. Some have spoken up in this thread concerning that topic on staff vs. members...

OK I give this about five, four three, two.......

Hi,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

I have to tell you Pat - I don't see bear baiting.

---

I see it. Any other member would have been nailed with infractions for it. Correct? They would have also been nailed with negative reps.

---

If you really feel that that crossed the line into bear baiting then I would suggest you PM one of the admin team and ask to have it looked at.

Since you are perfectly capable of leaving rep points I'm not sure what that has to do with it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CeraDigital

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

You say if it was any other breeder they would be slammed for any minor inconsistency - could you link me to any thread where that has happened on the site in the past?

---

I'll give you one simple name. Wes Harris. Wes did not crash the market. His partner did. His partner was posting his breeder animals for sale, yet your staff ripped him a part, as well as members. For what? His husbandry was correct. His animals were very healthy. The only thing anyone had on him was that his partner, not Wes, was crashing markets.

---

Do you honestly feel that what MKR did was a "minor inconsistency" ?

They also had accusations against the company for selling "morphs" as genetically proven when they were not even genetic, selling animals they did not actually have etc. You yourself had to get a refund becuse they sold you an animal they did not have.

Do you for one single second think that is a fair comparrison to this situation?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CeraDigital

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

This site has always tried to avoid the spats against breeders or other websites wherever possible from what I have seen.

---

I've seen otherwise. I've been here around 4 years, and I've seen numerous breeders being attacked and persecuted, even when defending themselves, with both staff and members against them. Valid reasons for inquiring were brought up here, and elsewhere for a while, and yet go unanswered.

---

I have been here only four months less than your good self. ;)

Of these numerous breeders being attacked why did you choose MKR as an example? They were hardly unfairly attacked.

If the staff know something underhand is going on they are not only allowed but actually duty-bound to speak up. Which innocent breeder was attacked by staff over a "minor inconsistency" and treated unfairly?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CeraDigital

As for JP's answer vs. mine. European views on giant husbandry differs from Americans. It's tat simple. They're not cramping their animals in smaller enclosures than needed, yet still they do not give them ridiculous room sized enclosures. He may feel that the cage may be too small. That would be his decision. The cages are just right for the size. As for the monitors, it is different. Feeding cages are a good way for personal injury, or injury to the animal. Cages that small for monitors are in fact that....small....a little too small....

---

I do know that european views differ on quite a few topics about housing, heating and breeding etc. :) **points to the location field in his profile**

I think Brian said all he needed to.

And I really think you need to take Ed's advice and think about that last post and the accusations it contains.


dr del

I really hope you dont stop doing what you love Brian. You have added so much more to this community than anyone else has, for ME. You seriously make me more and more excited about reptiles, and eager to learn every time I read or watch you! Thank you, and seriously dont let a few people on a forum get you down. Look at how many more people respect, and truly appreciate you for what you have done, and then look at the people who come to a forum bashing and stiring up trouble without even talking to you. I know there is many more on the good side :) I truly believe that you care deeply for every single animal that you have ever had. And never forget that there is so many of us out there cheering you on. I would never have been so enthusiastic about reptiles like I am today if I hadnt found your videos and website months ago.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by CeraDigital

I've seen otherwise, as have other members. Some have spoken up in this thread concerning that topic on staff vs. members...

---

The hell is wrong with you? If you're so annoyed with how the staff perform their 'job' take it up with them in PM or in the Site Info board stop posting in this thread. You're just publicly making a donkey out of yourself.

[goes and gets popcorn]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

If you really feel that that crossed the line into bear baiting then I would suggest you PM one of the admin team and ask to have it looked at.

---

Please tell me what good that would do, when it was the Administrative staff itself doing the bear baiting. The point was on a fair forum. I see no fair forum, which is why I rarely post here anymore...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dr del

Do you honestly feel that what MKR did was a "minor inconsistency" ?

They also had accusations against the company for selling "morphs" as genetically proven when they were not even genetic, selling animals they did not actually have etc. You yourself had to get a refund becuse they sold you an animal they did not have.

Do you for one single second think that is a fair comparrison to this situation?

---

Do you know the full stroy on what happened? Then how does that become a fair "persecution"?

I named one name, not the company. Wes was stuck...simple as that. They have a gold blush. The albinos that are produced from it come out different. He still has those animals and they still produce weird animals every clutch. How is that not genetic? I've seen it. So have others, including a member here which no longer posts. I will not drop his name. If you want it, PM me.

As for me needing a refund. It was because Joe Capone sold me one of Wes' breeder animals that he did not have for sale. Wes was nice enough to refund me, and apologize for the inconvenience, as well as give me an animal as an apology. He was busy cleaning up Joe's mess, out of his own pocket. Yes I do feel it is a fair comparison. He didn't do anything wrong, yet was attacked and ripped apart on this forum. As I've said, his partner was the one doing the damage, and he either lost all his animals walking away, or attempted to clean the mess up and make things right. Which would you do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

I have been here only four months less than your good self. ;)

Of these numerous breeders being attacked why did you choose MKR as an example? They were hardly unfairly attacked.

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Which is long enough to see what has been going on. See above. Although in Joe's situation it would have been a fair attack, the main one being attacked was Wes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dr del

If the staff know something underhand is going on they are not only allowed but actually duty-bound to speak up. Which innocent breeder was attacked by staff over a "minor inconsistency" and treated unfairly?

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Again, see above.

Tiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn Roooooof!






...rusted! :P

http://leon2ky.com/leon/duty_calls.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jerhart

[goes and gets popcorn]

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I'd rather have the smores that denial talked about earlier in this thread. :D

I never questioned anything about Brian here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wilomn

Brian should have the benefit of the doubt here. I have never heard one single reason why he should not.

The only reputation he has is a good one.

So you guys saw what amounts to a messy kitchen. What makes you think, ASS ume, that it is always that way?

Brian, from now on, clean house BEFORE you shoot video, not all the yocals get it.

And before anyone says it, I am not friends with Brian, nor have I been a customer in many years, though I have known him for 20 years, maybe a bit more. He's got all the qualities I'd look for in a friend and were he closer, allowing to actually build a friendship, I'd be proud to call him one.

I got no dog in this fight, I just see a bunch of folks demanding stuff from a good guy in a manner that would irritate me were it directed my way and which, in this instance, I disagree with the use of. I don't think he warrants the type of attention he's getting from some folks here.

Pattimuss, IF he were even remotely rumored to be a scumbag there is no way some of us would be, poorly, trying to back him up, me in particular. It's not favoritism, it's good past business and friends, who can be biased but this must be accepted, backing a good guy. It's what we all hope will happen when someone says crap about us when we aren't there to defend against it.

Sort of like you did for me on that site with that guy who's too dumb to know how stupid he really is, truly in a league all his own, you know?

You had my back, some here have Brians, but it is certainly not favoritism. I suspect that staff here, had they nothing good to say, would simply say nothing at all. Maybe not, but that's my suspicion and I'm sticking to it.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by AaronP

http://leon2ky.com/leon/duty_calls.png

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Cute picture.

Although it gets old with you repeatedly using it...

This could also be considered bear baiting as well, right? As for making myself look like a "donkey". It's kind of the other way around ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AaronP

http://leon2ky.com/leon/duty_calls.png

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nice and totally was me reading this thread. I have not wanted to post because there are so many strong opinions, not all of which i agree with but still... and as for Brian- Ive never met the guy, only know him through his vids and the site...and I think hes a great guy, I've learned so much thanks to his videos, and i really hope he doesnt stop....

The original point of this thread has been dragged through the mud and beat to death far long enough. Questions have been asked and answered. Anyone reading it is free to come to their own conclusions about who was "right" and who was "wrong" and who the "donkeys" are.

I would like to remind members that if they have a problem with staff, there are ways to address it that do not involve dragging threads off topic and adding more mud to an already difficult situation.

First and foremost, the very best thing to do if you have an issue with something a staff member has said or done is to address them directly and privately about it. If you truly feel that such contact would go badly, then please feel free to contact any other staff member, whoever you feel most comfortable talking with. We're always glad to work things out. We're not perfect and do make mistakes and work hard to hold each other accountable for genuine errors.

If you have some reason for feeling like your complaint MUST be made public, then we have the Site Info forum for you to make a comment in.

I'd like to point out that if the staff here were so completely biased and unreasonable as we've been accused of being, then those accusing members would probably already be gone...or at least have heavy infractions levied against them. But nothing of the sort has happened, because we do respect people's rights to voice their opinions, so long as they are not intentionally trying to undermine the integrity of the site or the staff.