News: 2 die in rock python attack

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I'm not saying this guy didn't do it...in fact, I'm sure there is foul-play her. But those pictures aren't something that I would, as a parent, immediately think "OMG MOLESTER!".
I've got tons of pictures of my kids running around like that, doing something goofy. It's what parents do. And when they don't have a bathing suit, guess what works just fine? Undies!

Does that mean this guy ISN'T a molester? Nope. I just hate seeing people ASSume because of pictures like that. These kids were over all the time, and supposedly "Like family" with his own son/himself. So these pictures don't prove to me that he was some evil child molester.

That being said, he probably is, and I just wasted my breath.

....

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:weirdface:rofl::rofl::rofl: You really got me here

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Originally Posted by Salamander

This needs to be passed around, too.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...pent-cage.html

Somebody explain to me all the photos of nearly naked little boys frolicking in his shop.

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Originally Posted by RoseyReps

I'm not saying this guy didn't do it...in fact, I'm sure there is foul-play her. But those pictures aren't something that I would, as a parent, immediately think "OMG MOLESTER!".
I've got tons of pictures of my kids running around like that, doing something goofy. It's what parents do. And when they don't have a bathing suit, guess what works just fine? Undies!

Does that mean this guy ISN'T a molester? Nope. I just hate seeing people ASSume because of pictures like that. These kids were over all the time, and supposedly "Like family" with his own son/himself. So these pictures don't prove to me that he was some evil child molester.

That being said, he probably is, and I just wasted my breath.

I just hate seeing people hung out to dry for this kind of picture, when 15-20 years ago no one would have thought ANYTHING of it. Hell, we used to run around in undies in the backyard splashing in mud puddles. Does that mean my parents were molesters? :rolleyes:

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I understand what you are saying... My child is often in her diaper only during the heat of the day, partly because she gets heat rash very easily. At the same time... I would be uncomfortable if she were running around nearly naked in someone else's home, I would also be uncomfortable if pictures of her like this were then posted publicly on the internet. It might just be me, maybe I don't understand the close relationship that man had with the parents of these two boys, probably because I don't have that kind of relationship with anyone. It does bother me a little though.

What bothers me MORE however... is the statement in that article about this snake escaping in the past. One escape can be an accident, fix the problem and move on. Two escapes... that could still be an accident, but also shows your first fix wasn't good enough. Three escapes, now it's just plain negligence. For any kind of animal that is potentially dangerous (something large like that 14foot African rock, or a venomous snake, or even a large dog), there shouldn't be any accidents, let alone twice.

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Originally Posted by sorraia

I understand what you are saying... My child is often in her diaper only during the heat of the day, partly because she gets heat rash very easily. At the same time... I would be uncomfortable if she were running around nearly naked in someone else's home, I would also be uncomfortable if pictures of her like this were then posted publicly on the internet. It might just be me, maybe I don't understand the close relationship that man had with the parents of these two boys, probably because I don't have that kind of relationship with anyone. It does bother me a little though.

What bothers me MORE however... is the statement in that article about this snake escaping in the past. One escape can be an accident, fix the problem and move on. Two escapes... that could still be an accident, but also shows your first fix wasn't good enough. Three escapes, now it's just plain negligence. For any kind of animal that is potentially dangerous (something large like that 14foot African rock, or a venomous snake, or even a large dog), there shouldn't be any accidents, let alone twice.

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I agree wholeheartedly. I have no doubt this was the owner's fault, either by negligence, or actual foul play.

The pictures were not taken from him though, these were pulled off of the mother's facebook page. Along with the one with the kids playing in the sand in a tank.

I heard last night that he snake was not the property of the pet shop, but was the family's pet?? Anyone confirm/deny??

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Originally Posted by Mephibosheth1

I heard last night that he snake was not the property of the pet shop, but was the family's pet?? Anyone confirm/deny??

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The family owned the pet shop, so regardless if it was a pet or part of the shop its still the same family.

seems plausible that the pictures were ninja'd off facebook, thats just what tabloid journalists do: Hack and enter facebook-accounts to get private pictures and personal information to be used as background.


Its really easy to do if the pictures are for example set to "frieds and friends of friends".

I'll be honest with you guys, I do believe that, unfortunately, the snake did do it. I also believe this is a horrible freak incident, and will probably never happen again.
It's a horrendous tragedy though. The guy who we're calling a molester said these were like his own children. Their mother was his best friend. Why the *bleep* would anybody kill their best friend's children? Hell, even he's grieving, and he probably feels guilty. And now everybody else is shoving him around. I don't about you guys, but if I were him, I'd be depressed as hell. He probably wants to kill himself.
And think about this- I'd rather have this reptile associate be considered a klutz who messed up real bad rather than a child molester. Because what does that do for the rest of us in the viewpoint of the non-reptile public? That will reinforce the belief that we're all wierdos with tattoos and piercings (not like those are bad though) who go around molesting children and being creepy people. At least he shows that anybody associated with reptiles has emotion too.
And I feel bad for the mother too. Losing your children, then hearing about it again and again all over the internet and the TV. Lord have mercy.
And I'd rather hope the kids, if they ever awoke, saw a snake suffocating them than somebody who they thought of as their own pseudo-dad. Because seeing someone you trust killing you as your last memory is awful.

In the mean time, we have to step out of denial. The snake probably did kill the children. We can't change the past and by saying someone else did it and that does not bring back two wonderful kids, and does not make the python uninvolved. However, don't be too defensive. The Reptile Community is NOT guilty. We just have to prove that to the non-herp public. We must show sympathy for all those involved, but we must also have damage control before we and our pets are villainized.

Well, the local news here (says my wife) last night said the "kids were constricted" but the autopsy reports haven't been released officially other than they were asphyxiated. People are already drawing conclusions and even if the snake didn't do it no one will believe it now. They've crucified our hobby, like Casey Anthony and Zimmerman. There is no going back even if every news report comes back and says "the snake didn't do it".




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Originally Posted by pythonminion

I'll be honest with you guys, I do believe that, unfortunately, the snake did do it. I also believe this is a horrible freak incident, and will probably never happen again.
It's a horrendous tragedy though. The guy who we're calling a molester said these were like his own children. Their mother was his best friend. Why the *bleep* would anybody kill their best friend's children? Hell, even he's grieving, and he probably feels guilty. And now everybody else is shoving him around. I don't about you guys, but if I were him, I'd be depressed as hell. He probably wants to kill himself.
And think about this- I'd rather have this reptile associate be considered a klutz who messed up real bad rather than a child molester. Because what does that do for the rest of us in the viewpoint of the non-reptile public? That will reinforce the belief that we're all wierdos with tattoos and piercings (not like those are bad though) who go around molesting children and being creepy people. At least he shows that anybody associated with reptiles has emotion too.
And I feel bad for the mother too. Losing your children, then hearing about it again and again all over the internet and the TV. Lord have mercy.
And I'd rather hope the kids, if they ever awoke, saw a snake suffocating them than somebody who they thought of as their own pseudo-dad. Because seeing someone you trust killing you as your last memory is awful.

In the mean time, we have to step out of denial. The snake probably did kill the children. We can't change the past and by saying someone else did it and that does not bring back two wonderful kids, and does not make the python uninvolved. However, don't be too defensive. The Reptile Community is NOT guilty. We just have to prove that to the non-herp public. We must show sympathy for all those involved, but we must also have damage control before we and our pets are villainized.

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Im honestly still not quite ready to accept it, is that hard headed, possibly. Do I really think that this guy is a molester or anything of the sort, no, not really, nor do photos like that necessarily make it that way. I was being a smart *** earlier. If it were one child, I think I would have accepted the fate already, if they were just crushed when it fell through the ceiling, I'd probably accept that too.

As to why anyone would kill their best friends kids? Why would anyone kidnap 3 girls and keep them in his basement for 20 years or however long it was. Why would a mom run out naked pack her kids into the car and drive the wrong way on the highway into oncoming traffic? I don't think we quite know why people do a lot of really messed up things. Now am I saying he did it, no, but I'm still not convinced the snake did either. As I said, maybe that makes me hard headed, but Im going to wait for more info to come out, if it ever does. If it was the snake, he should however some how be held accountable.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

As to why anyone would kill their best friends kids? Why would anyone kidnap 3 girls and keep them in his basement for 20 years or however long it was. Why would a mom run out naked pack her kids into the car and drive the wrong way on the highway into oncoming traffic? I don't think we quite know why people do a lot of really messed up things. Now am I saying he did it, no, but I'm still not convinced the snake did either. As I said, maybe that makes me hard headed, but Im going to wait for more info to come out, if it ever does. If it was the snake, he should however some how be held accountable.

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I don't think a psychopath would make a best friend and cry about their kids dying.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

If it was the snake, he should however some how be held accountable.

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Oh most definitely.

Here are some good links for you guys and gals for your "debates" that I'm sure your having with the uninformed. Kodie put this together to send to our family members in a email but I edited it down to the links for you all.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/

Also, the % of injuries/deaths each year from pools, bathtubs and dogs in comparison to captive reptiles is silly.

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html
http://www.tomkileylaw.com/library/child-injury-attorney-boston-bathtub-injury-lawyer-massachusetts.html
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/dog-bites/biteprevention.html
http://usherp.org/tag/reptile-deaths/

"Captive reptile incident (all kinds, including salmonella) 1 in 4,040,294" Less than 1 person per year.

:) In case anyone was wondering!!!

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

Here are some good links for you guys and gals for your "debates" that I'm sure your having with the uninformed. Kodie put this together to send to our family members in a email but I edited it down to the links for you all.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/08...python-attack/

Also, the % of injuries/deaths each year from pools, bathtubs and dogs in comparison to captive reptiles is silly.

http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/water-safety/waterinjuries-factsheet.html
http://www.tomkileylaw.com/library/child-injury-attorney-boston-bathtub-injury-lawyer-massachusetts.html
http://www.cdc.gov/homeandrecreationalsafety/dog-bites/biteprevention.html
http://usherp.org/tag/reptile-deaths/

"Captive reptile incident (all kinds, including salmonella) 1 in 4,040,294" Less than 1 person per year.

:) In case anyone was wondering!!!

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I did no such thing!

Nice to see another person with my name. ;)

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I'm heartbroken for the children and their family, but I'm with the not quite convinced group so far. I kept three 13-14' burms at one point in my life, and though I think they would be plausibly capable of constricting a child to death, I just can't envision a scenario where they could constrict two children at once without anyone noticing, (or even that they would consider a human as food). I had a rare event last night which reinforced that skepticism; I got nailed by my male cinny last night while feeding, (he's a very aggressive feeder, knew it was feeding time and struck as soon as his tub was opened). What got me thinking though was his reaction......after hitting my hand he didn't attempt to constrict at all, he immediately seemed to realize he didn't have a mouse in his mouth and actually freaked out and tried to run away. He instantly ran to the dark end of the cage, rolled up in a ball and refused to feed after previously being in a very aggressive feeding mode, (he calmed down later and fed). Point being he knew he didn't have his usual meal in his mouth and retreated, something I think would be a normal reaction for any python. I know, I know, the kids smelled like farm animals, etc, etc......but I still can't quite get my head around it.....if true it was a very rare, unusual and aberrant incident. As Paul Harvey used to say; I can't wait to hear "the rest of the story". Of course, no matter what the truth turns out to be the damage to our hobby has been done, and prejudice against it will likely increase.

S

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Originally Posted by OctagonGecko729

http://usherp.org/tag/reptile-deaths/

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Damn! The government has a lot of regulations to do before we ban captive reptiles.

One day, oh one day, we'll have that perfect sanitary bubbly utopia that our oh-so-caring government wants to give us! Soon the environment will be saved, and we will be safe forever! And it will be, just oh sooooooooooooooooo perfect!







Not.

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Originally Posted by Slitherous

...freaked out and tried to run away. He instantly ran to the dark end of the cage...

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https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...lafPg_EdCYFlYz

I couldn't help it.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...lafPg_EdCYFlYz

I couldn't help it.

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Ha, left myself open for that one didn't I? Really can't fault you for having a sense of humor! Poor choice of words on my part. I should have used the word "scooted", "slithered" "moved quickly", or some other descriptive word(s). Point being he tried to get away!

S

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

I don't think a psychopath would make a best friend and cry about their kids dying.

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You would be surprised what a psychopath would do to get out of trouble. They are often deceitful and try to place the blame on others (possibly in this case a snake), as well as lying for personal profit. They can and do make friends quite easily, usually to benefit themselves. As far as him crying, I didn't see or hear any interviews where he was actually crying but I may have missed them in the sea of things floating around with this story. The interviews I did hear with him, he was quite calm and seemingly NOT emotional. He even admitted it himself in the interview, but he said it was because he was "in shock" which very well may be true.

I'm not saying he did it, I wouldn't dare say either way until all of the details are known, but don't think for a moment that a true psychopath wouldn't or couldn't do something like this. My mother is currently a MHP and a counselor for mental patients in the past. She still sees things that others would find to be very unbelievable, or that mental patients are "incapable" of doing or thinking such things...that doesn't make them any less true.

hey, pools, bathtubs and dogs are not particularly rare and quite dangerous :)


i would investigate:

- death by falling coconut. maybe around 150 cases per year.
- death by japanese pufferfish sushi (fugu) poisoning. only in japan, but japan is less populated than the USA and the numbers seem comparable.

another japanese one i find particularly interesting is death by mochi.

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Because of mochi's extremely sticky texture, there is usually a small number of choking deaths around New Year in Japan, particularly amongst the elderly. The death toll is reported in newspapers in the days after New Year.

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then there would be the classic one, death by lightning strike. it happens surprisingly frequently. For example:

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1998 October: The entire association football team of Bena Tshadi playing against Basanga was killed by lightning during a match in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Everyone on Basanga, the home team, survived

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as soon as the heart attack grill in Las Vegas turns into a franchise, then death by heart attack at the heart attack grill could become a contender.

death by winning big in gambling could also be one.


unfortunately sources for each of these are not that easy to find. But given the low numbers of death by snake, we should hit this ball right out of the park. And pools, tubs and dogs dont quite do it for me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_unusual_deaths for some inspiration.

How about self-torpedoing?

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• 1942: 32 men died as a result of a chain of events that started when the British cruiser HMS Trinidad accidentally torpedoed itself.^[65]
• 1944: 74 men died when the US Submarine Tang (SS-306) accidentally torpedoed itself during a combat patrol off the coast of Taiwan.^[66]

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

I did no such thing!

Nice to see another person with my name. ;)

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You know whats funnier yet. She is Kodie H. as well :rofl:

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Originally Posted by BlueMoonExotics

You would be surprised what a psychopath would do to get out of trouble.

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At this point, they are sociopaths. Because they can function normally and can pass off false emotion as real emotion.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

At this point, they are sociopaths. Because they can function normally and can pass off false emotion as real emotion.

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Been lurking this thread because I knew I'd find good information about this story here.
However I had to post when I read what was written above.

There is no difference between sociopath and psychopath- if I recall correctly, both terms are going the way of the Dodo, replaced with Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Sociopathy

Quoting Urban Jungle Radio Facebook status:

"And so the hysteria takes grip...

"North Vancouver Mounties rushed to a home near Capilano University around noon Wednesday after a resident there reported a four-foot-long ball python living in the basement suite below had gone missing".


http://www.vancouversun.com/technolo...547/story.html"

and now that they have a "story" that ACTUALLY IS about a ball python.... they show something else. looks like an african rock python.

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Originally Posted by toothy

Been lurking this thread because I knew I'd find good information about this story here.
However I had to post when I read what was written above.

There is no difference between sociopath and psychopath- if I recall correctly, both terms are going the way of the Dodo, replaced with Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopathy#Sociopathy

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http://www.diffen.com/difference/Psy...h_vs_Sociopath

This could mean what you mentioned as being dropped, however I specifically mean the criminology side of it where sociopaths are functional and discrete while psychopaths are unable to hide their violent nature.

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Originally Posted by pythonminion

I'll be honest with you guys, I do believe that, unfortunately, the snake did do it. I also believe this is a horrible freak incident, and will probably never happen again.
It's a horrendous tragedy though. The guy who we're calling a molester said these were like his own children. Their mother was his best friend. Why the *bleep* would anybody kill their best friend's children? Hell, even he's grieving, and he probably feels guilty. And now everybody else is shoving him around. I don't about you guys, but if I were him, I'd be depressed as hell. He probably wants to kill himself.
And think about this- I'd rather have this reptile associate be considered a klutz who messed up real bad rather than a child molester. Because what does that do for the rest of us in the viewpoint of the non-reptile public? That will reinforce the belief that we're all wierdos with tattoos and piercings (not like those are bad though) who go around molesting children and being creepy people. At least he shows that anybody associated with reptiles has emotion too.
And I feel bad for the mother too. Losing your children, then hearing about it again and again all over the internet and the TV. Lord have mercy.
And I'd rather hope the kids, if they ever awoke, saw a snake suffocating them than somebody who they thought of as their own pseudo-dad. Because seeing someone you trust killing you as your last memory is awful.

In the mean time, we have to step out of denial. The snake probably did kill the children. We can't change the past and by saying someone else did it and that does not bring back two wonderful kids, and does not make the python uninvolved. However, don't be too defensive. The Reptile Community is NOT guilty. We just have to prove that to the non-herp public. We must show sympathy for all those involved, but we must also have damage control before we and our pets are villainized.

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Why would someone kill their best friend's children? None of us sane people could answer that. But consider children are killed all the time, and often not by complete strangers, but by people they knew and trusted, their own siblings, their own parents. Out here there was recently a case where a young boy was reported missing. His body was found in a shallow grave in the backyard of the very home he lives in. Turns out his own brother (step-brother) killed him, and the victim's mother helped cover up for him. There are many other cases of family members, including siblings and parents, killing their own children. There are a lot of sick people in this world, and the scariest part is you can't always readily identify them. Some of the worst people out there are also the coolest cats you'll ever meet, extremely manipulative. That's how they are able to commit their crimes. If just any one could pick them out from a crowd, they'd be reported long before they could do any harm.

As for trying to save our hobby... too late. Snakes have already been villainized. The media has already convinced people snakes are killer animals out to hunt us down and kill us. Society already believes each and every single one of us who chooses to keep a snake is some kind of psychopathic freak who needs to be locked up in the mental ward. We can try to change some minds, but it's probably not going to matter much. The vocal members of our society are out there trying to take our snakes away from us.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

http://www.diffen.com/difference/Psy...h_vs_Sociopath

This could mean what you mentioned as being dropped, however I specifically mean the criminology side of it where sociopaths are functional and discrete while psychopaths are unable to hide their violent nature.

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My husband applied to a local sheriff department. Part of that process includes psyche screening. During one of the interviews the difference between psychopath and sociopath came up. I think it was during his lie detector test. The person giving him the test said he's interviewed psychopaths and sociopaths, and of the two sociopaths are worse. According to him, psychopaths know what they are doing is wrong, but can't help it. Sociopaths apparently don't believe what they are doing is wrong, and have absolutely no remorse. During a lie detector test, the psychopath will give "hits", while the sociopath doesn't. For example, the question, "Would you have any problem killing a person?" When the psychopath answers, there will be a hit on their results. The sociopath can look the interviewer dead in the eyes and say, "I have no problem killing a person." and their results will have no hits, nothing indicating a lie. I don't know how effective lie detector tests are (I know there's been debate), but regardless that's something to think about.

Exactly, sociopaths can hide from you.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

and now that they have a "story" that ACTUALLY IS about a ball python.... they show something else. looks like an african rock python.

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Mmmmmmmm, its a Burmese python.

and how do you call people that lack any and all empathy for other humans or for any animals, but that never commit crimes and can function quite well in society?

i most often here these being referred to as psychopaths, but according to the link these would be sociopaths.

or is total lack of empathy but no violence something else?


Anyway, i think the guy that was the owner of the african rock python was neither. if he would be the impulsive kind, it would show much more in the past and in statements about him. if he would be the planning kind, then it doesnt fit because its a damn stupid plan, best case scenario is that everyone hates him, non-snake-keepers and snake-keepers alike, because he failed to have the snake under control. (or because he kept it in the first place, or because he kept it near children).

Our hearts and prayers go out to the family. Tragic. :(

I think someone is trying to serve foul play with a side of BS. :mad: I'll continue to follow this story as it will develop some more.

anywaaaays... any updates on this story? or is it case closed: snakes are monsters.

as·phyx·i·a (s-fks-)
n.
A condition in which an extreme decrease in the amount of oxygen in the body accompanied by an increase of carbon dioxide leads to loss of consciousness or death.

Things that can cause oxygen deficiency:


-Carbon monoxide inhalation, such as from a car exhaust: carbon monoxide has a higher affinity than oxygen to the hemoglobin in the blood's red blood corpuscles, bonding with it tenaciously, and, in the process, displacing oxygen and preventing the blood from transporting oxygen around the body
-Contact with certain chemicals, including pulmonary agents (such as phosgene) and blood agents (such as hydrogen cyanide)
-Self-induced hypocapnia by hyperventilation, as in shallow water or deep water blackout and the choking game
-A seizure which stops breathing activity
-Sleep apnea
-Drug overdose
-Ondine's curse, central alveolar hypoventilation syndrome, or primary alveolar hypoventilation, a disorder of the autonomic nervous system in which a patient must consciously breathe; although it is often said that persons with this disease will die if they fall asleep, this is not usually the case
-Acute respiratory distress syndrome.
-Exposure to extreme low pressure or vacuum to the pattern (see space exposure)
-Hanging
-Respiratory diseases
-Drowning
-Possibly crucifixion

Also right from that article in dailymail:

"It constricts its prey to death and has been known to devour whole antelopes or crocodiles. After gripping the prey, the snake coils around it and tightens its coils every time the prey exhales; death is often caused by cardiac arrest rather than by asphyxiation"

UNFORTUNATELY everyone is just going to have to be patient until the full results are released.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

At this point, they are sociopaths. Because they can function normally and can pass off false emotion as real emotion.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

and how do you call people that lack any and all empathy for other humans or for any animals, but that never commit crimes and can function quite well in society?

i most often here these being referred to as psychopaths, but according to the link these would be sociopaths.

or is total lack of empathy but no violence something else?


Anyway, i think the guy that was the owner of the african rock python was neither. if he would be the impulsive kind, it would show much more in the past and in statements about him. if he would be the planning kind, then it doesnt fit because its a damn stupid plan, best case scenario is that everyone hates him, non-snake-keepers and snake-keepers alike, because he failed to have the snake under control. (or because he kept it in the first place, or because he kept it near children).

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I guess I was trying to avoid getting off topic by explaining the different types of personality disorders (there are many) and try to figure out (without ever meeting him in person) which one he could possibly be, if any. That would be up to the people involved in this case. The term psychopath had already been dropped in this thread and it's used pretty loosely by the average person. The point is that they can be your best friend and most people wouldn't have a clue. Again, I'm not saying that he is or isn't, but it can and does happen. Personally, I'm not sure that is the case, but I do think that details are missing that shouldn't be. Something is amiss either because the media isn't telling it or because someone isn't giving all the details.

Yeah, it really disappoints me to see some articles using the word "strangled" right there in the headline. Asphyxiation sounds like a terrible way to go, but there are more ways that someone could die from asphyxiation than being strangled by a python.

from Jay Brewer (Prehistoric Pets') facebook page:

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A message from founder Jay Brewer regarding his televised interview this morning:

"Those poor children! I cannot imagine loosing two of my kids, but I would want to know the TRUTH! All of it. I would want to know why there was no bites, no blood, & no trauma?

Reports said at first Savoie tried to wake the boys, why would you think they would wake up? Because they looked like they were asleep with eyes closed.

Carbon monoxide is called the silent killer. It leaves no bite marks, no blood, & no trauma. Comes from ventilation pipes (which were broken by the pythons escape) and goes to the lowest points in the room... the floor were the kids where sleeping.

Also the preliminary autopsies came back as asphyxiation again pointing away from the python. Harry Greene professor and snake expert at Cornell University explains "constrictors do not kill by asphyxiation" and Brad Chambers further details "snakes kill by a catastrophic spike in blood pressure and cardio pulmonary failure"

Too much suggesting something different happened! Why are these questions not being answered by the news? Why is the information being withheld? Is it possible the story would no longer be sensational?

Last night I thought I would have the opportunity to share these FACTS along with the many others that make this terrible incident questionable and try to show the normal characteristics of pythons.

After all our company Prehistoric Pets has had million of safe and educational interactions with children. This is COMPLETELY out of character for these snakes.

Unfortunately I was not given the chance from CNN. Instead of playing the over 30 minutes of responses recorded, just seconds of the interview was edited, reinterpreted, and misrepresented.

This is an EXTREMELY disappointing showing from CNN who I hoped would report on the truth instead of the narrative they would like to lead. I went on to defend not only pythons, but the TRUTH in the media.

I will no longer assume in naivety that my words will be shared in their entirety and will no longer take any pre-recorded interviews with news outlets such as these that aim to push an agenda instead of the facts."

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Originally Posted by TheSnakeGeek

anywaaaays... any updates on this story? or is it case closed: snakes are monsters.

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Oh its far from over. Here is the recent I have seen.

http://globalnews.ca/news/769386/mis...cean-employee/

Apparently many of the animals, i.e crocodiles and what not came from the government as he was the only facility capable of caring for the seized animals... hmmm...

Well, we have a long road ahead of us.
By the way, this may be useful: http://melissaasmith.hubpages.com/hub/simplelogic
I demand public protest for ALL walking exotic pet keepers- not just reptile keepers! I'm getting sick of the witch hunting crap.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Oh its far from over. Here is the recent I have seen.

http://globalnews.ca/news/769386/mis...cean-employee/

Apparently many of the animals, i.e crocodiles and what not came from the government as he was the only facility capable of caring for the seized animals... hmmm...

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The problem with this story is that the source is an employee/friend of his. There are several holes here. If the government gave him the animals, why did they not, also, give him the permits needed to keep them? If there was no place to take the animals seized back then, why are they having no trouble finding a place now that they were seized from him? Lastly, from the pictures I've seen, his shop looks pretty small. How did he ever have room to properly house all these large animals? I don't like the fact that snakes are taking an undeserved beating in all this, but if this guy was breaking the law, he deserves what he gets.

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Originally Posted by SquamishSerpents

Also right from that article in dailymail:

"It constricts its prey to death and has been known to devour whole antelopes or crocodiles. After gripping the prey, the snake coils around it and tightens its coils every time the prey exhales; death is often caused by cardiac arrest rather than by asphyxiation"

UNFORTUNATELY everyone is just going to have to be patient until the full results are released.

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This statement does not say only cardiac arrest so that does not rule out the snakes as the culprit here. Thus far, on this site, it has been an interesting view of confirmation bias in action. The most likely scenario at this point is the unfortunate and untimely death of the two boys by the snake due to an irresponsible keeper. If there is evidence that contradicts that then I am waiting to hear it.

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Originally Posted by ewaldrep

This statement does not say only cardiac arrest so that does not rule out the snakes as the culprit here. Thus far, on this site, it has been an interesting view of confirmation bias in action. The most likely scenario at this point is the unfortunate and untimely death of the two boys by the snake due to an irresponsible keeper. If there is evidence that contradicts that then I am waiting to hear it.

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Something to think about, though. Why was there no mention of other evidence of the snakes being responsible i.e. broken ribs, bruising, bite marks? If the autopsy conclusively proved the snake did it, why are the Mounties still looking into it and not already filing charges against the store owner? The store owner is probably responsible for this in some way whether it's negligence or murder. From what I've seen so far and what I know of large constrictors I'm far from convinced the snake did it. I should mention that someone on Facebook brought up another possible scenario. The ventilation was damaged. Is it possible the boys were killed by CO2? I know it does no good to speculate really, but with all the general public jumping on the bloodthirsty snake bandwagon it's hard not to get defensive.

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Originally Posted by treeboa

The problem with this story is that the source is an employee/friend of his. There are several holes here. If the government gave him the animals, why did they not, also, give him the permits needed to keep them? If there was no place to take the animals seized back then, why are they having no trouble finding a place now that they were seized from him? Lastly, from the pictures I've seen, his shop looks pretty small. How did he ever have room to properly house all these large animals? I don't like the fact that snakes are taking an undeserved beating in all this, but if this guy was breaking the law, he deserves what he gets.

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Yea, former employee, but I did not see where it said friend, maybe I missed that, anyway. I do not recall reading anywhere that he was for sure holding anything illegally, if that was the case, where are the charges against him for that? The snake in question, from what I have read, was legal, was in his care prior to the current laws and was grandfathered in, or something of the sort. The article said the croc was given to him in 2002, was it not much later, 2009 or something that the new exotics laws were in place? Or did I miss something, I might have, if so can someone please point me to it?

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Yea, former employee, but I did not see where it said friend, maybe I missed that, anyway. I do not recall reading anywhere that he was for sure holding anything illegally, if that was the case, where are the charges against him for that? The snake in question, from what I have read, was legal, was in his care prior to the current laws and was grandfathered in, or something of the sort. The article said the croc was given to him in 2002, was it not much later, 2009 or something that the new exotics laws were in place? Or did I miss something, I might have, if so can someone please point me to it?

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Didn't say friend was just my assumption. The article that reported authorities confiscating his animals mentioned they were being confiscated because he did not have the proper permits to keep them. So obviously they were being kept illegally. I don't know about Canada, but in the US when regulations are passed they almost never grandfather in anyone. They just give you a time frame to give up your banned animal. In this case, I imagine that if they came up with a permit system they would not have grandfathered in anything.

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Originally Posted by treeboa

Didn't say friend was just my assumption. The article that reported authorities confiscating his animals mentioned they were being confiscated because he did not have the proper permits to keep them. So obviously they were being kept illegally. I don't know about Canada, but in the US when regulations are passed they almost never grandfather in anyone. They just give you a time frame to give up your banned animal. In this case, I imagine that if they came up with a permit system they would not have grandfathered in anything.

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Good point, hadn't thought about that. Which then really brings to question if the government was bringing animals, why, if it was illegal for him to have them. Or was it prior to these laws, and he just never registered them, applied for permits or whatever he was supposed to do once the new regulations were in place.

Here's a link. Actually it says the animals are going to be confiscated. Apparently at one time he had permits as a zoo but wasn't eligible for them after changing his operation to a retail shop.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/dnr-set-exe...151349461.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by treeboa

Here's a link. Actually it says the animals are going to be confiscated. Apparently at one time he had permits as a zoo but wasn't eligible for them after changing his operation to a retail shop.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/dnr-set-exe...151349461.html

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OK, that article makes more sense, thanks for linking that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by treeboa

Something to think about, though. Why was there no mention of other evidence of the snakes being responsible i.e. broken ribs, bruising, bite marks? If the autopsy conclusively proved the snake did it, why are the Mounties still looking into it and not already filing charges against the store owner? The store owner is probably responsible for this in some way whether it's negligence or murder. From what I've seen so far and what I know of large constrictors I'm far from convinced the snake did it. I should mention that someone on Facebook brought up another possible scenario. The ventilation was damaged. Is it possible the boys were killed by CO2? I know it does no good to speculate really, but with all the general public jumping on the bloodthirsty snake bandwagon it's hard not to get defensive.

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The thing is, we DO NOT yet have the autopsy reports yet.

Two things leaked from the autopsy:

- Presence of bite marks consistent with the snake
- Likely cause of death, preliminary: Asphyxiation.

We do not have full autopsy reports, these two bits of information leaked early, it is likely that the full autopsy reports, when they go public, confirm this. Anything else, like bruises, strangle marks, broken bones, toxicology report, would all be covered in the full autopsy reports which we do not have yet. Only the two bits i mentioned leaked early.


Where i live our local reptile shelter is headed by a professor of veterinary medicine specialized on reptiles and teaching at a really prestigious university. And among the staff and volunteers there are no less than 4 professional veterinarians. The facility is also used to teach senior vet students and veterinarians on how to handle venomous or otherwise potentially dangerous reptiles, and some students make their PH.D. in veterinary medicine there. People volunteer to help the animals, but people also volunteer because it is an excellent place to get in-depth and up-to-date knowledge about reptiles, and reptile husbandry, and reptile handling, and reptile diseases.


one guy that used to have some licenses doesnt make a reptile sanctuary. Caring for the animals, expertise, and education, and law-enforcement should come together, then you have a good sanctuary.

It's true they haven't made the report public. They may not even have it ready. They maybe waiting for toxicology reports, etc. Do you have a link to the leak about bite marks? All the reports I've seen only talk about the cause of death as asphyxiatiion.

It's far easier for politicians to introduce blanket legislation in the time of a tragedy so they are seen as doing "something" about the "problem". This is purely for votes, and not because they seek to understand the issue. Instead of holding individuals accountable, they attack the object or the animal because if they look at the unbiased, real CDC statistics...20+ people are killed every year by dogs (mostly kids and the elderly), 200+ people are killed by domesticated farm animals, 80000+ people are killed in alcohol related incidents, and you're 10 times more likely to be killed by your toaster (or other small electrical appliance)...they'll see it as it truly is: a simple, horrific tragedy that is extremely rare in our hobby. Only one other person has been killed in the U.S. by an African Rock python in the last 15-20 years. Let's not forget the USFWS has even proved that constricting snakes cannot live anywhere north of Florida in their own study.

All this information is fine and dandy, but the politicians don't look at it. And with the introduction of legislation that would allow the USFWS to add ANY species to Lacey without due process, we can probably kiss our hobby goodbye as we know it. The only way we can attempt to overcome these hurdles is by action. Talking about it in these forums is great, but no one hears us. We need to take our views to our Congressional Representative and support organizations like USARK that do speak for us. Moreover, we need to educate.

So if you're wondering what you can do, head over to the USARK website and follow the steps to oppose Categorical Exclusion AND the recent push to add Boas, Reticulated Pythons, and others to Lacey. Without the sum of our individual efforts, we'll be shot down:

http://usark.org/action-alert/usfws-...l-exclusion-2/

http://usark.org/press-releases/acti...-as-injurious/

Some more sheer idiocy:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...es-hungry.html

The best rated comments, heck the comments in general on this article (and the article itself) really bother me. Why people can't employ common sense and realise that not all snakes are big enough/of the temperament to be any real threat to people, and that NO snakes are evil monsters out to prey on people any chance they get is beyond me.

Hopefully some of you might post on this article like I did so there are at least some comments that aren't of the 'BAN ALL SNAKES IMMEDIATELY - SAVE OUR CHILDREN!!!!' variety.