Culling Healthy Animals

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Originally Posted by wilomn

And having caught you in several lies here, on this site, we should just believe you.....why?

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Name 1?

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

SRX's thread was deleted because we have one rule at our forum. Play nice, and be respectful. SRX was intentionally picking fights with me because he doesn't like the new format on our boards, and whenever I would shut him down with an answer, he would come up with something else he doesn't like. All of our threads are still available to comment on, including the culling threads, with the exception of one, which I locked because the forum members requested it. SRX was not blicked from my site, which is an option, I just deleted a thread that had nothing to do with culling, and everything to do with him complaining about the new format. S~

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Shawn. Stop. I was not intentionally picking fights with you and stop making it sound like it was alot of numerous posts.

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Originally Posted by SRX

Shawn. Stop. I was not intentionally picking fights with you and stop making it sound like it was alot of numerous posts.

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You didn't post a thread about the new format? Thats the thread i deleted, and after a week or so of no coments, and me basically answering your claims, you start up again by bringing that thread back to the top and posting a link to this thread, which again, you can post in a seperate thread, without bring up the original one where you are complaining.

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Name 1?

S~

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You don't remember?

You're saying everything you've written is the truth?

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Originally Posted by wilomn

You don't remember?

You're saying everything you've written is the truth?

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Sigh...again with the accusations and no proof. I think this makes 3 times... in this thread alone?

Guys, I said my peace, and thanked you all for the discussion. thats about thebest I cna do. I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won" when there was only a debate/discussion, and not a competition. For those of you who are offended, I am sorry. for those of you who sent me PM's thanking me for being the whipping post on a tough subject...thanks. 8-)

S~

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Sigh...again with the accusations and no proof. I think this makes 3 times... in this thread alone?

Guys, I said my peace, and thanked you all for the discussion. thats about thebest I cna do. I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won" when there was only a debate/discussion, and not a competition. For those of you who are offended, I am sorry. for those of you who sent me PM's thanking me for being the whipping post on a tough subject...thanks. 8-)

S~

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So, you did forget.

Your act was good, but I don't think martyr is your defining role.

Whining schoolboy is more you.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Sigh...again with the accusations and no proof. I think this makes 3 times... in this thread alone?

Guys, I said my peace, and thanked you all for the discussion. thats about thebest I cna do. I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won" when there was only a debate/discussion, and not a competition. For those of you who are offended, I am sorry. for those of you who sent me PM's thanking me for being the whipping post on a tough subject...thanks. 8-)

S~

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I'm gonna go out on a limb here as a member of the staff (speaking for himself only). You sir, are full of crap.
Good day.

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

I won't keep bantering withthe guys who say "I won"

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You still don't get it ... as long as healthy animals are being killed for no other reason than because they are your so called by-product from your quest to make designer mutations to be sold for big bucks ... no one wins.

Blessings,

-adam

I'll try to be breif here, but there are a few points I'd like to make.

This whole euthanasia to spare suffering or low quality of life concept is not new. It was quite prevalent in both Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia. Of course there is a difference, but that difference is only on scale.

This discussion started, Shawn, as one based upon purity, morphs, and the market. Now you are trying to compare these animals to ones intentionally bred for food. Never mind the fact that you have no shortage of food for the animals they feed, nor do you have any animals that require snakes as food. It seems to me that you feed these to your other animals because it eases your conscience more than if you just killed them outright.

As far as price/beauty is concerned, I paid $1200 on a female Leary Jag a few years ago. Upon receipt, the animal was malnourished, dehydrated, and mite infested. This was an 18 month old animal that undoubtedly cost more originally than what I paid for it. There goes that whole value=care theory.

Last season, you produced at least one clutch of very nice Jungle Jag mutts, didn't you? What happened to all the normal siblings? Were they spared a miserable existence, or did you send them off to lives of ultimate suffering? Why in the world would someone so concerned about the lives of "low value" animals put two animals together to produce low value animals? That doesn't make sense.

I recently sent an UGLY "mutt" American ratsnake integrade to a woman in Texas. It cost me more to send her this gift than what I made on the actual sale animal I shipped it with. My reward was a heart-warming video of these animals on the news as part of an educational program. Well cared for, loved, and appreciated.

Why on earth would you close the thread on your own website about this topic only to open one here? Again, it doesn't make sense, and in my opinion, it's borderline schizophrenic. Perhaps in the future you can do us all a favor and preface an argument such as this with the disclaimer that you do not represent the vast majority of the carpet python community, but you are rather an exception to the rule...and a rather disheartening one at that.

Mike Curtin

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Originally Posted by MikeCurtin

Why on earth would you close the thread on your own website about this topic only to open one here?

Mike Curtin

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Actually I opened this one within a day of the other being opened because I was curious to see what another community would say. I closed the one on the Carpet forum because, simply, a couple of people asked me too, and the discussion had run it's course. It's all right there in the thread. The very first one we started, years ago, was a very long thread, much like this one. I think it's still open actually, it just died on it's own...I think it's 3 or 4 years old now.

S~

Okay, so let's run with the "I don't want people mis-representing animals so I cull them" argument, except with ball pythons.

The very same thing can be done to ANY ball python (though it probably happens more often with normals). People can say an animal is het for whatever and sell it for more money, whether it truly is or not. Many scumbags in the hobby do this with their normals in an effort to get rid of them and/or get more money for them. Should we cull all the normal ball pythons because they might be mis-represented in the future? What about all of the other morphs--they can be mis-represented just as easily!

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Originally Posted by ShawnC

Actually I opened this one within a day of the other being opened because I was curious to see what another community would say. I closed the one on the Carpet forum because, simply, a couple of people asked me too, and the discussion had run it's course. It's all right there in the thread. The very first one we started, years ago, was a very long thread, much like this one. I think it's still open actually, it just died on it's own...I think it's 3 or 4 years old now.

S~

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My mistake, Shawn...I apologize. Any response to my other points? I tried to keep the tone down on MP just because I thought it was in the best interest of everyone not to let the discussion get too out of control. It seems that this debate now has some legs, and I would really like to know your thoughts.

Mike

I waited a bit to see if you would post it here as well. Guess not, so no real way to know without asking. And since you are so trigger happy with the "blicking", I'll ask here.....Was your posting true that you do not even own an arrowana or any white throats (might have been you own a very small one?), or was that a fabrication that was conveniently and quickly deleted on moreliapythonsdotcom?

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Originally Posted by jglass38

It is an honor to know you, Mr. Wysocki. I feel enlightened by what I have learned from you in this very thread. I am proud to call you a friend!

I am also truly humbled to have spent 5 glorious years as a member of this great forum that allows us to speak our minds and learn from each other to grow not only as people, but as animal owners and caretakers.

What more can I do with my 10,000th post on this forum but to use that privilege provided to me by bp.net to speak my mind and say to Shawn C...

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

In light,

Jamie

P.S. Joe: You have some catching up to do! ;)

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Great post :) Happy 10,000th! :)
Thanks for calling-out Adam on being awesome in this thread; I second that.

Your whole post describing why you have to cull the snakes you create because they are mutts is crap.
You take the pretty mutts and sell them. When you do this, you take the same amount of risk (muddying purity) of an animal being mislabeled or being used to breed more mutts.
You just cull the ugly ones because they won't bring in as much profit, and you can prevent others from being able to make a profit when the animal becomes breedable.
If you are sooooo worried about the purity of your carpet pythons, because you can not get anymore then stop breeding them and you will stop contributing to the problem.

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Originally Posted by accidental777

Your whole post describing why you have to cull the snakes you create because they are mutts is crap.
You take the pretty mutts and sell them. When you do this, you take the same amount of risk (muddying purity) of an animal being mislabeled or being used to breed more mutts.
You just cull the ugly ones because they won't bring in as much profit, and you can prevent others from being able to make a profit when the animal becomes breedable.
If you are sooooo worried about the purity of your carpet pythons, because you can not get anymore then stop breeding them and you will stop contributing to the problem.

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And that's when we get to the heart of things. It's not about culling animals based on deformities, defects, or "weak" genetics. If anything, the genetics on the animals Shawn is killing is better and more diverse than "pure" animals because these animals have been outcrossed with different gene pools.

I think we all know that if we breed 2 different subspecies together, the result will be integrades. If you don't want integrades, don't put the animals together...PERIOD!!! Don't tell me about how you are killing these animals for their own good or to protect the purity or genetics of the captive carpet population. Again, if you hate killing these animals so much, stop producing them.

Notice that I only used the word "cull" when referring to deformed/weak animals. What Shawn is talking about is not culling....it's killing.

Mike Curtin

No offense but dude youve got some screws loose, and its ok cuz I said no offense :D

No way- if I had more normals than I could find homes for, I wouldn't breed them anymore, honestly. This makes me feel depressed. I have normals hatching as we speak. They're not worthless extras. They're living, breathing beings. Two are going to live (for free) with long time (years and years) friends of mine with proven histories of caring pet ownership. The third will find a good home or stay with us. When we had a male adult ball we had no need for in our breeding, I gave him to yet another of my long time friends, and he's an important and loved part of their family.

Certain dog breeds have histories of culling too- simply for color and markings! Even in breeds where those markings are acceptable (just not the current show ring fad). Ugh, ugh, and ugh! If there aren't enough pet homes for mismarked dogs or normal ball pythons, then simple- stop making more.

So...how's it going everyone?













:)

couple points, one - i do not agree with shawn.
two, it is not at all appropriate to villify him just because you don't agree with him. a parallelism could easily be made between this and the pro-life/pro-choice debate. believe what you want, people, but don't pass judgement...

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

couple points, one - i do not agree with shawn.
two, it is not at all appropriate to villify him just because you don't agree with him. a parallelism could easily be made between this and the pro-life/pro-choice debate. believe what you want, people, but don't pass judgement...

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No it's more like being anti-abortion and going ahead and getting pregnant intentionally then ending it in abortion while saying "It's ok the world is overpopulated anyway."

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

couple points, one - i do not agree with shawn.
two, it is not at all appropriate to villify him just because you don't agree with him. a parallelism could easily be made between this and the pro-life/pro-choice debate. believe what you want, people, but don't pass judgement...

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I don't think judgement was passed based on what he's doing.

I think it was more the lies and bullcrap he piled up on his various theories why it's better to kill than keep.

And for that, yeah, he's not a hero. Not for feeding snakes to whatever, just his reasoning, more like excuses, to do so.

i guess i just disagree... there were insults, accusation, and insinuations from the start. i'm not saying everyone did it, a lot of people (especially the mods) did not. but... i guess i wasn't referring to everyone here.

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Originally Posted by Colin Vestrand

i guess i just disagree... there were insults, accusation, and insinuations from the start. i'm not saying everyone did it, a lot of people (especially the mods) did not. but... i guess i wasn't referring to everyone here.

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Nope, reckon not.

COLOR ME GUILTY!

Yup, I judged ... and will continue to do so. Not only do I disagree with someone that kills healthy snakes for the sake of creating a "sustainable model" for his/her business when there are perfectly good options for preserving those snakes lives, but I feel that they are morally bankrupt as well.

No different than when I watched a guy in a car the other day swerve into on coming traffic in order to run over a turtle in the road and I chased him down just to let him know what a scum bag I thought he was.

If it will save the life of even one healthy animal from dying for no other reason than the callousness of a human beings greed, I'll judge all day long and be good and loud and annoying about it.

And if the OP were to change his ways and stop advocating the killing of healthy animals for the sake of a sustainable business model ... then I'll judge him as a better person.

Blessings,

-adam

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Originally Posted by Adam_Wysocki

COLOR ME GUILTY!

No different than when I watched a guy in a car the other day swerve into on coming traffic in order to run over a turtle in the road and I chased him down just to let him know what a scum bag I thought he was.

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tangent time:

SOMEONE SERIOUSLY DID THIS?! what is WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE.

Kudos to you for going after him for this.

/end capslock and tangent time.

Ok, so I am gonna come at this from both a business and ethical sense, and I don't think ShawnC's decision meets the criteria of either.

So it is understood that despite the inherent beauty of all snakes, morph or normal, in the eyes of potential buyers there is a large difference (both aesthetically and monetarily). Now for the good of being able to cover the costs of one's hobby, one needs to sell the higher demand morphs and whatnot first. Once those bases are covered its on to the "ugly" (hate that term, they are just in less demand, they are certainly NOT ugly!) ones.

To make the assumption that selling the normals/less desired snakes at a lower cost means that the prospective owner will value it any less and thus provide a lower quality of life is a FAR stretch. If they are sold at wholesale to a chain, etc... than look at who will be buying them, people who want them as PETS. Though ShawnC doesn't seem to view them as pets, the majority of individuals who will be in the market for a normal snake doesn't care about morphs/doesn't know, so they are equally as valuable to them as your prized Lavender Albino, they love them the same. Sure there will be some bad owners or more common owners that simply do not know any better. So i think the argument that to use them as feeders is better for the SNAKE just doesn't fly

Now on to cost, i think that it is perfectly reasonable to use snakes as feeders IF it is natural for that animal to eat snakes AND the potential cost of the snakes by weight is lower than the cost of comparable food source by weight. for instance if they can/do eat mice and snakes and the potential market price of the 120 gram snake is $10 while 120 grams worth of mice is $12 assuming all other nutritional needs are met, I find it acceptable to use the snakes as feeders just as people use mice as feeders. However, I think that in most all cases either snakes are not the natural food source of the animal, snakes would not provide all the same nutritional value, and the cost of alternative food sources is cheaper.

I think that the OP's view towards his snakes as different from his dogs is upsetting, I would be equally upset if I lost Aldous or my dog Mischa. However, I do understand the financial decisions that have to be made, but since the discussion seems to have gravitated towards ethical reasons rather than financial reasons I don't think that the risk that the snake might have a lower quality of life justifies the killing of that animal especially when there are willing buyers for them!

5 days old .. this isn't "necroposting" is it?

I just wanted to say that my male normal I paid $70 for about a year and a half ago is my all time favorite snake. The dude was bought as a pet, treated as a pet, and loved as a pet. He is the jewel of my collection as far as I am concerned. I have several awesome snakes, some look killer and some are just normal, but they all have their own personalities .. and they are all cared for as if they were the only one in existence because .. well, they are.

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Originally Posted by cinderbird

tangent time:

SOMEONE SERIOUSLY DID THIS?! what is WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE.

Kudos to you for going after him for this.

/end capslock and tangent time.

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Unfortunately, people do it all the time. Theyre jerks.

I saw a MASSIVE snapping turtle out here, in the middle of the road, dead ( I turned around because i thought it was crossing, and i was going to help it get where it was going safely, but one look at its shell told me all i needed to know.) i know someone purposely hit that animal. there was no way NOT to avoid it, it was the biggest snapper ive ever personally seen around here wild.

my opinion (without reading the whole thread it to long :P) That killing perfectly healthy snakes because their not that valuable or ugly is WRONG if you don't want to sell them give them away and trust me people would love to have a normal as a nice pet. How would you fell if your mom killed you because you were ugly? Im not tying to insult at all but just think about this.

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Originally Posted by tiexecutioner

my opinion (without reading the whole thread it to long :P) That killing perfectly healthy snakes because their not that valuable or ugly is WRONG if you don't want to sell them give them away and trust me people would love to have a normal as a nice pet. How would you fell if your mom killed you because you were ugly? Im not tying to insult at all but just think about this.

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Posts like this are what really bother me.... We are NOT talking about people... We are talking about ANIMALS... Please do NOT get the two confused, they are NOT the same thing...

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Originally Posted by tiexecutioner

my opinion (without reading the whole thread it to long :P) That killing perfectly healthy snakes because their not that valuable or ugly is WRONG if you don't want to sell them give them away and trust me people would love to have a normal as a nice pet. How would you fell if your mom killed you because you were ugly? Im not tying to insult at all but just think about this.

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Posts like this are what really bother me.... We are NOT talking about people... We are talking about ANIMALS... Please do NOT get the two confused, they are NOT the same thing...

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No matter how you "fell" about it.

Why does everyone get so mad when someone on here posts that their snake died because of a mistake then?:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by _Venom_

Why does everyone get so mad when someone on here posts that their snake died because of a mistake then?:rolleyes:

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Perhaps it's just me, but what does this question have to do with this thread?

Start a new one if you really want to know.

And, once again, you've ass umed in error.

Not everyone gets mad about those things.

This is just a reduculas thread... My "opinion" on this matter is this.. I would only cull if the snake was deformed in mouth, face or body, noticably kinked or any other obvious abnormalities or health issues.. Only the ones that would hurt the market, endanger future breeding projects or otherwise cause the snake to have a short and unhealthy life...

If its just a normal that looks "ugly" in your opinion, i would just sell them off wholesale or at low "normal" prices..

I see no reason to kill just because its ugly. A few very cheap meals of pinky mice or rats, a few sheds, and you can sell it without losing any profit at all. A hobby is something you love to do. That means every aspect of it.

What do you consider "ugly"? Thats the real question. Is it simply brown & black with no special markings? How can any normal be "ugly" when its just a normal? Even with other types of snakes. What is ugly if there is nothing physically or cosmetically wrong with it? :confused: