the snake/human relationship

and, seriously, if you believe in evolution you're already half way there. You've already acknowledged that all creatures came from a common starting point and are, therefore, related in structure. So, you point is that you are 100% sure that, even though our brains evolved from simpler animals, that everything that we are capable of is totally unique and animals have none of it?

you're oversimplifying a simple biological theory into senseless romanticized drivel, although we may all share a common ancestor, human brains have evolved much further than animal brains due to our social structure, and environmental factors beginning at the dawn of man. As came such things as standing upright and language. So sure, we all came from the same place, but no, we're not now all the same.

and yes, corvids and dolphins can show problem solving thought, but that is unique to very few of the non human creatures and certainly not seen in snakes or cats. Don't get me wrong I love my snakes, and I love my kitties, but we're not the same, we have significant differences between us. Which is why if I ask my cat what it wants for breakfast I probably won't get a very intelligible spoken answer.

so I'm not saying we're all the same. I'm just saying that, like other parts of anatomy, I think we share common mental patterns. Almost everything that walks can get good and pissed off, for example. So, if you imagine the ability to "like" something as a limb then I would say snakes have a very tiny one and we have a very big and strong one. Do I think my snake can love me? No. But I think, in some real primitive way, he likes me.

I find your thinking to be flawed. Snakes are not social creatures so this affinity you want it to feel towards you in unfounded. I can agree that a dog will have some feeling for you since it is a pack animal, even a cat you can stretch it, but they more just accept the fact that you feed and protect them. But your snake may come to recognize you, but not because of who you are. It's because you have become a familiar landmark in their environment, they realize when the cage opens, you'll be there same as always. So sure, maybe it recognizes you, but if so it's as a feature of its captive environment with which to guide itself by and not a friend.

ok but it may have some simple positive associations with your smell. Does that sound possible? I think it is and I would bet that is probably all that liking something is if you're a snake.

What I left out of my last point was that maybe a snake's ability to "like" something is tiny and feeble compared to ours. My main point is that, despite the huge difference in "size", they are both there. And so, I think that automatically rejecting any anthropomorphic impressions of our pets as inaccurate is not right. I do agree there's big room for error but I don't agree that its all a "romantic fantasy" as you put it.

To be honest, in trying to compromise, I can still find fault in this. Because some snakes really just never 'tame' down. So what is your idea on that one?



I'd have to say snakes have the ability to learn things that may be useful to them, such as when feeding time is, where heat is, but this is more instinctual learning and environmental cues, and not the higher learning you refer to. I think it's... human brains have the special adaptation of the frontal lobe, and then other mammals and birds have cerebral hemispheres, while snakes have none of these (don't quote me on this but I think this is the case). This leaves them with a limited capacity, and like I said this would be mostly instinctual, mostly things to keep them alive and procreating in the wild, things such as recognizing food or danger. There still is no room for liking something, besides what will keep it alive such as food and basking, in there.
Honestly I think you're ideas have become significantly less crazy sounding, and although I think that captivity is more of a dumbing down of a survival fight or flight instinct and less of a getting to know and like you, I do think it would be interesting to find out what exactly a snake can learn, meaning can it go beyond simple instinctual associations such as food=good, predators=bad.

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Originally Posted by qiksilver

Honestly I think you're ideas have become significantly less crazy sounding,

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shhhh... I have a reputation to keep up.... :rolleye2:

I think snakes have alot more instinct and alot less reasoning capability than we do. Perhaps the strenght of influence of instinct varies from snake to snake. Say from "extremely strong" up to "overwhelmeing". You can see the same sort of variance in other animals and even people

So, here's an example of a positive association for a snake. Let's say it craps in its hide. It knows what it is because it won't go back in there. So we can say that it doesn't "like" crap. It also knows that thats its hide and probably has the desire to go back in there as well. I would then say that the snake doesn't "like" the situation. Then, your hand comes in, does some stuff, and suddenly the hide is all nice again. I'm not 100% sure but I would guess that the snake has some sort of positive association with that since it gets to go back into its hide. It will also most likely associate that with your smell. I think that's about all the "liking" they are capable of but I still consider it "liking".

Another part of my "theory" is that I think that people simply assume that what they have is automatically so special. Surely, the cognitive abilities are the best on the globe. But when it comes to emotions I'm not so sure. Anger is the easiest example here. And I'm sure cats and dogs can hate as well.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, here's an example of a positive association for a snake. Let's say it craps in its hide. It knows what it is because it won't go back in there. So we can say that it doesn't "like" crap.

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Tell that to my crew. They don't care if there's crap in there or not, they're going in. Lucky for them I check every day! ;)

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Originally Posted by rabernet

Tell that to my crew. They don't care if there's crap in there or not, they're going in. Lucky for them I check every day! ;)

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LOL Same here, my snake will wallow in it.