How can a cage be too big???

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Originally Posted by bearhart

............... The article you reference is awesome except I wish that she had discussed each of the symptoms in a little more detail. My snake does show one or two of them but I have no way to interpret their meaning.

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That will come with your own personal experience and with listening to the experienced breeders. There's no reason why you need to totally reinvent the wheel.

It's good to question in order to learn but isn't always wise to question every word. Eventually others won't want to provide advice b/c they could see it as a waste of effort on their part to 'convince' you what is necessary.

Compared to some, ball pythons could still be considered a fledgling hobby, but there are breeders and hobby herpers who have worked with and cared for these animals for many, many years. Experience is an excellent teacher, and to me, these ppl should be listened to and learned from. :)

I get the point regarding my personality. I can be a very aggressive person especially when it comes to technical issues. I try to work out the kinks as I go. You should have met me 15 years ago :O

BUT - I am also an often misunderstood person. Social nuances are a challenge for me at best and once my technical side gets fired up I lose what little I have and tend to become very serious, impersonal, and terse. I'm a champion of truth and reason and all else becomes secondary - including social graces. Alot of people aren't into that. As my boss told me once "Ben, you think black and white in world of grays." But, the real issue is that alot of people are inclined to take it personally, which it is most definately not. The truth of the matter is I actually prefer to lose an argument because then it means I have advanced. Take the "burn point" thread, for example. As I was doing research and challenging everybody I was also changing my husbandry. As we debated and dug up information I had to admit the validity of the reasoning. I was happy to "lose" because I got a great little education.

To summarize, I'm not really a bad guy. I definately get the impression some of the posts above are hostile and that some of the posters clearly think that I am hostile. Like you can incorrectly project your own feelings onto a snake, so can you onto another person when reading a body of text they wrote. We all fill in the blanks when it comes to how we think things are being said. Trust me, I'm not being sarcastic, or antagonistic, or careless. Just a little :sunny: :rolleye2: :taz: :carrot:

Oh well, that's enough about me. Hey you know what's funny? "BP.net" = "Bens-Personality.net" LOL Don't think so!! But, if three people took the time to write on the subject I figured I had the right to reply.

well i read the full 6 pages and just had to write something...

if a snake isnt doing so hot then maybe a keeper is doing something wrong?

my :2cent:...



thats all i can say. you guys pretty much covered all of it...

sorry to be so extra!

I think the above post is really something that the original poster needs to take to heart.

Bearhart, seriously, if your snake has been ill during its stay in your enclosure, the logical thing to do is to find out what can be done to speed the healing process. Ball pythons are not terribly active snakes. They spend a lot of time hiding and laying still. They are ambush predators and therefore do not have to go out in search for their food. They lay in wait until something comes near enough to strike and kill. They have a naturally slow metabolism and can go very lengthy periods of time without eating without ill effects. If you handle your ball python, IMO that should be enough exercise for him.

One reason there are a lot of opinions out there is just because a lot of people have different opinions. Another reason is because sometimes people will think that snakes in general all have the same needs, when in fact one species may need something completely different than another species. Ball pythons are shy snakes with different needs than, say a Boa Constrictor. When someone gives you advice, make very sure that they are a qualified, experienced ball python keeper who spends time learning improved husbandry techniques as the years pass.

To sum up the whole "How can a cage be too big?" question, here's what I think.

Larger cage-
Advantages:
-Impressive size
-Looks nice and spacious considering space needs of other animals
-Possibly can be used for the snake's entire life
Disadvantages:
-Water bowl and hides for a small snake may look too small for the enclosure when they are the right size for the snake... leading the keeper to purchase oversized supplies
-The enclosure itself is more expensive
-Larger heating elements needed to maintain proper temps
-A small snake may feel threatened by too much open space
-If the cage is heavily decorated to rake up open space, decorations must be cleaned regularly
-Feeding may take longer if feeding live prey

Smaller cage-
Advantages:
-Size of supplies are scaled to the snake
-Not paying for wasted space
-Low-wattage and less expensive heating elements
-Snake feels more crowded and secure without needing a lot of "stuff" to fill in the empty spaces
-Easier to clean
Disadvantages:
-Perhaps not as impressive in the looks department
-Seems like there's no where for the snake to explore
-Will most likely have to purchase at least one larger cage as the snake grows

So. Ball pythons need:
Correct temps
Correct humidity
Feeling of security
Clean environment

Without these things, your snake will most likely become stressed. Stress can lead to not eating and immunocompromisation (is that a word?). If your snake is stressed and its immune system is compromised, any other husbandry mistakes can cause a serious health problem. This works the other way around also. If your husbandry is off in some way, and your snake becomes stressed and immunocompromised, it can end up with a serious health problem

All that being said................................ smaller cages have been proven (search these forums) to provide ball pythons with their specific needs when a larger cage has not. And they are way easier to upkeep. That's why most experienced ball python keepers prefer smaller cages.

Rapture:

Well I'm all for that. I've made both some permanent and temporary husbandry changes. In addition, he's getting Baytril injections. Also, just so everybody knows the score here, his symptoms are very mild. They are so mild, in fact, that the vet's diagnosis was "maybe an RI" and the exotics dealer I got him from was skeptical at best. So, I'm not sure that this situation qualifies as some sort of skeleton in my closet. I'm not knocking the importance of husbandry here. I did take note from my online research that fixing any obvious husbandry issues were actually recommended as a first step in treatment of a mild RI. Also, my argumentative nature is often perceived as obstinace but is actually a way of sifting out the best info. Many people here are justifiably confident with their expertise but, until recently, I didn't know them from Adam.

We have had some experienced keepers report success with larger enclosures in this very thread. That takes the issue above opinion in my mind. I'm getting the impression that one possible mistake to make with a larger enclosure is to just add a bunch of dead space around the BP's original homestead. Or another one might be to take the same setup and scale it up in an attempt to make the whole thing roomier. I always envisioned taking the approach of making multiple areas, each of which offered all of amenities a BP desires within a short distance. Essentially the strategy would be to sort of replicate the smaller setup in a few patches inside the larger one.

:rockon:

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Also, just so everybody knows the score here, his symptoms are very mild. They are so mild, in fact, that the vet's diagnosis was "maybe an RI" and the exotics dealer I got him from was skeptical at best. So, I'm not sure that this situation qualifies as some sort of skeleton in my closet.

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This is a perfect example of where it "appears" that you dismiss out of hand information that experienced keepers try to share with you by trying to justify your current husbandry by saying that the RI is so mild....

Had your vet done a culture like he should have, there would be no doubt to whether he had a RI or not. Even if it is mild, left untreated, would have progressed to something much more difficult to treat, most likely as a lower RI.

It sounds like you've made up your mind what you plan to do, there's really not much that many of us can add at this point. I think the fact that only a handful of people stay with larger enclosures, and the more experienced keepers choose smaller speaks volumes. We choose smaller, because we have all observed in our own collections, that our snakes do much better when kept in smaller, snugger enclosures. I've got one female that comes OUT of her small enclosure to "help" me put the rat in her enclosure for her. I love that aggressive feed response, where the rat doesn't even touch the floor (live, I might add) before it's in a full coil.

Why not observe posters, and instead of being confused with what you perceive as conflicting information, choose one or two people who you feel offer the best advice and just follow their advice? Look at their length of time here, their reputation level and go from there.

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Originally Posted by sweety314

It's good to question in order to learn but isn't always wise to question every word. Eventually others won't want to provide advice b/c they could see it as a waste of effort on their part to 'convince' you what is necessary.

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Agreed. I don't want to become the Darth Vader of BP keeping. :sabduel:

Part of the problem though is that this site is dual purpose. On one hand it is a troubleshooting site and on the other it is a place for enthusiasts to share experiences and debate. Likewise, legal liabilities ensure that an MD can't do much more than regurgitate the currently accepted "correct" advice to you during a patient visit yet the history of medical research that provided that information is long and rich and involves experimentations, failures, debates, upsets, you name it. For the safety of the patient, these are kept very separate. On BP.net they live side-by-side.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

This is a perfect example of where it "appears" that you dismiss out of hand information that experienced keepers try to share with you by trying to justify your current husbandry by saying that the RI is so mild....

Had your vet done a culture like he should have, there would be no doubt to whether he had a RI or not. Even if it is mild, left untreated, would have progressed to something much more difficult to treat, most likely as a lower RI.

It sounds like you've made up your mind what you plan to do, there's really not much that many of us can add at this point. I think the fact that only a handful of people stay with larger enclosures, and the more experienced keepers choose smaller speaks volumes. We choose smaller, because we have all observed in our own collections, that our snakes do much better when kept in smaller, snugger enclosures. I've got one female that comes OUT of her small enclosure to "help" me put the rat in her enclosure for her. I love that aggressive feed response, where the rat doesn't even touch the floor (live, I might add) before it's in a full coil.

Why not observe posters, and instead of being confused with what you perceive as conflicting information, choose one or two people who you feel offer the best advice and just follow their advice? Look at their length of time here, their reputation level and go from there.

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I'm not dismissing anything. I even acknowledges that husbandry is the most likely cause and that I've made corrections. I'm just saying that I don't think its appropriate to dangle it in front of my face in an entirely unrelated discussion that I initiated in order to solicit the opinions of these keepers you recommend. Anybody on here has been sick dozens of times in there life. Sometimes there are obvious reasons and other times there aren't. And I doubt many of us call our mothers to admonish them for the times we got sick as kids.

I suppose I'm risking angering you here but I have to point out that you just placed your opinion above a vet's. I have just recently been flamed for a somewhat less serious breach of responsibility.

Also, I have actually questioned the vet involved on both the culture and the oral baytril issues based on information received from this site. Trust me, I have accepted considerably greater stress, time, and money expenditure on this whole RI thing in the name of "rep'n my BP homies". Also, when I went to the vet to get the injections they talked with me further and it became clear to me that they *disagreed* based on experience and discussion with other vets, not out of ignorance. In addition, they provided me with a rather lengthy printout from a closed vet's forum discussing this exact issue. It was not cut and dry by any means. I've got no regrets so far and its all cool. I just wish we could all relax a bit and spend our time on the real issues.

You are definately a very intelligent individual; I can see that. :)
I would be concerned that in a larger cage, the ambient air would not be evenly heated and kept at the right temperature.
It is just so easy to heat and keep heated, a cage that is just right: big enouhg to let the snake stretch and be active.. small enough to hold heat and humidity at even levels consistent with a temperature gradient. ("cozy" if you will..)
I am not just regurging info here. I had my snakes in larger tanks (with much higher floor-to-lid heights than the tubs) for a time, with more height-space than the tubs they are in. What I found in tanks was an inability to have stable humidity, let alone temperatures!
I will readily admit.. I hated tubs and racks at first. I thought they were so ugly, spartan.. hated the appearances of them.. Then, my attitude changed. I was sick of covering my tanks with saran wrap before/during sheds to somewhat retain humidity. Was tired of needing to cover the glass sides so that my shy snakes would eat better (tubs are less see-through..) Not to mention the floor space saved with a rack of nicely sized tubs versus tanks everywhere.. it is tough when your house (apartment) has limited floorspace and your other interest is fish and aquaria which take up huge areas of said limited floor space :) Living in a large, open-floor farmhouse might seem like you'd have a spacious place; not so in this case!
I realize that I have gone off of the strict topic of large Vs. small cages, and made my post about tanks vs. tubs. But I think that it is relevant.. tubs have smaller, cozier heights than most tanks.