Curiosity and genetics...overbite?

Here is the auction. One has been sold and there is a picture of one that is almost patternless in the group.

http://www.reptileauctions.com/Pet-G...auctiondetails

To some degree... I see both sides...

I think you could have the potential for some interesting research to contribute... I think you should document everything that happens with these two babies to see if they can live normal lives and make it successfully to adulthood. I suppose, if you really were that interested, I could understand your desire to breed the adults, but only if they were contained within your collection. And I stop following the line of thinking there... Why euthanize the babies, if the parents have successfully made it to a breeding age without problems? If your curiosity drives you to investigate this abnormality, why not either keep the two babies as pets... or breed them, and keep all the babies as pets... You have to consider responsibility. Because while I'm all for diversity in the gene pool, I believe that we should not knowingly corrupt genetics, and I also think it's true that we should not create life for the purpose of immediately destroying it.

sometimes you just need to think to yourselves how far is too far for the morphs. Genetic mutations that would usually get an animal killed in nature now being inbred to make many many more of this mutation because they look cool.

I dunno ladies and gents, this is a tricky situation. It's obvious that some, not all, but some morphs out there are pretty detrimental to the health of the snake. But we're a weird species ourselves for playing god like we tend to do.

I personally keep balls because they are amazing snakes to own, I've never found a better type of snake for a pet. They are gentle, small and manageable, but not too small and squirmy like a colubrid. Stayed away from morphs. Why pay for a different design for the same snake at heart.

This morph business is obviously pretty big. Lot of respect for the breeders, they obviously know their stuff. And I know it doesn't make me any friends to put them under the microscope.

This topic really interest me right now, as i just purchased some balls from a breeder and just realized one has overbite. I'm glad i read this because now i know it is possibly genetic and not a good idea to breed him. I just contacted the breeder i got him from. Should be interesting to see what he has to say, i dont really know what to expect since i've never had this type of problem..

Probably the mad scientist in me but I'm also very curious.

Too bad more info isn't available on this clutch (Where all babies in this clutch deformed? Had either parent been bred before, maybe even to each other, and what was the outcome? Did anything unusual happen pre lay or during incubation, etc. etc. etc.).

Seems to me like there are three possibilities.

1. It is genetic. If this was 9 for 9 and neither parent showed this problem it seems either very bad luck or odd genetics. Maybe some incompatibility like an rh- mother and a homozygous rh+ father that would cause the problem 100% of the time. If it where a simple recessive trait (that by terrible luck when 9 for 9 from het x het) then it should be very quick to identify if a pair of these homozygous babies are bred together producing 100% short jaws.

2. It's environmental. Maybe mom was too cool before laying or the eggs got too hot or didn't get enough oxygen or something like that. If enough info could be gathered from when this is seen to find the cause it would be very valuable info for helping to avoid the problem in the future.

3. It's some sort of combination of genetics and environment. Maybe a certain allele reacts to stress this way and other genetics wouldn't. This would be the hardest to figure out.

My bet is on #2 but unless you breed these we can't eliminate #1.

One of my females who produced good babies before produced a clutch with lots of eye problems (several babies with one or both eye missing and some small eyes) bred to an unrelated spider on a breeding loan. I kept one of the normal eyed spider girls as I also think this case was not likely genetic. I gave the missing eye animals to a friend who has an advanced animal science and veterinary education. We where interested to see how they did but unfortunately they all died so presumably had even worse problems than just the eyes.

Just in the last week I hatched a clutch from an unrelated female who has had healthy babies before and most of the clutch didn't make it but the three that did all had large umbilical’s that didn't pull in like normal. I was told this is seen from time to time and that they will dry up and the babies will be fine but one of mine did die (maybe had other problems too). Having this mother through the breeding season I think the cause might have been too cool temperatures in my new snake room in the early spring. I'll certainly make adjustments on my side but perhaps this info will help others too.

Both of these females are very large so perhaps that or the large clutches contributed in some way.

Another thing that I’m starting to learn finally is the old adage to leave eggs alone. I tend to want to spray warm water around eggs that seem to be drying too much or remove bad eggs etc. I’m now thinking that any disturbance or change could be bad even if I think I’m helping. Going forward I’ll put more effort into the optimal egg container preparation with just the right moisture content to start with and little ventilation and not disturbing until hatch time.

This thread was from 2 years ago, and the OP hasn't logged on in over 2 years, so I don't know that we'll know what ever happened.

Argh, I didn't look at the dates. I usually don't pay attention to names either but should have remembered reading this before.