Burn point...

Bearhart, in short a snake can live off what is recommended at Petco and other chain petstores that do not fill you up with the information found here. However the question that begs to be asked is, for how long? My very first snake was a praire king snake I got when I was 7. I had EVERYTHING Petco told me I needed or wanted. Not gonna lie I'm spoiled and got what I wanted for my snake. However it lived only till I was 12. I doubt 5 years is the expected length of time a king should live for, and I fed that snake every week and followed all the instructions my pet store had given me. I have also had several other friends that have had snakes at one point and time, and in most cases the snakes have not lived anywhere near as long as they should have, even when the owner thinks they are treating their snakes like kings. If you take the proper, in detail care, such as the information you'll find here, your snake will live considerably longer/healthier and ultimately happier life. So yes, a snake can live without all the fancy set-ups and gadgetry, but once again... for how long?

The scary thing is most of my friends think its normal for a snake to live such short lives. I mean, rats don't live that long, dogs/cats are considerably larger and dont live TOO much longer. But snakes should outlive 3 generations of cats... I am glad I can be such a nerd at times and I found this site when I decided to give snakes another try. Because now my snakes live in conditions that will hopefully see them happy for another 30+ years!

re-reading my post, it may not be very clear. The last paragraph is comparing the life of my first king to other animals. A mouse/rat only live a few years, dog generally 10-15, while a snake should live 20-30 years, maybe more.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

There are so many different tips and everybody assigns a different importance to each of them. I don't like discrepancies - especially when it comes to my Snakey.

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This is, of course, exactly right. Each and every person here has their own unique experiences to speak from, so you're not going to get the same answer from everyone. The thing is though, you should not WANT the same answer from everyone. Because there simply is no single right way to do this. Everyone's setup is unique, because the environment it is being kept in is unique. What works for my snake at my house might not work for yours. But it might...which is why I suggest different options that have worked for me. (In other threads, obviously...since this is my first post in this thread.)

Such differences aren't necessarily "discrepancies"...they're just different methods for achieving the same goal of providing a healthy home for your snake.

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You can get alot of high quality information off of this site but what concerns me are all the people who buy snakes every day and, for practical reasons, simply can't be educated to this level right there in the pet store.

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That's a concern for all of us...and is the precise reason why this site exists in the first place. We can't change what goes on in the tens of thousands of ordinary pet stores out there (and it's not just pet stores...there's plenty of "breeders," dealers and distributors that sell exotic animals without bothering to educate their customers on their care.)

So all we can do is be here in as visible and welcoming way as possible to help those who are willing to search for help in taking proper care of their animals.

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So, what I'm really searching for are the real fundamental points. The 60-second version of ball python care, so to speak.

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There IS NO such thing. As I'm sure you've seen...there are simply too many ways to achieve the same goal...plus too many different variables that need to be considered, to give anyone the "60-second verson of bp care." That's what the caresheet is for....and even that is just a guideline. It's not a holy writ of laws.

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This is why this particular issue is so interesting. Because its complicated and what alot of people here consider "essential" is nowhere near the average setup you walk out of the pet store with. So I wonder, how essential is it?

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The process of providing one's snake with the proper environment is only as complicated as one makes it. If one insists on pinching pennies and finding the "most economincal" way of achieving the bare minimum while maintaining an asthetically pleasing enclosure....then yeah...it may seem to be a complicated dance. But if one is willing to spend the money necessary for the most reliable equipment, and choose simplicity over "decor".....it's not that hard.

What I wonder...is why you compare what a pet store gives you with what experienced keepers suggest is necessary. You've read the horror stories of how utterly inept and uneducated most pet store employees are regarding the animals they sell....and how their whole point of being is to sell STUFF to you, regardless of how necessary or useful it is. So....why would you believe certain steps needed to achieve an optimum environment are NOT essential simply because the pet stores don't promote them?

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Or are these just a bunch of hard-core types that have standards that are not applicable to your more casual owner? Or, are these things essential but are there ways to address them that are cheaper and less complicated?

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You know....this last bit is really up to each and every keeper to decide. You can personally decide we're all just "hard-core" types who go above and beyond what is necessary just because we like to. OR....you can decide that you personally want to do what's best for the animals you have chosen to be responsible for.

How important is that responsibility to you? BP's are extremely hardy animals. They can live for years with no temperature gradients and can go for months without any food being tossed their way and slimy bowls of evaporating water. I've seen rescued animals that have lived for years wallowing in their own waste with either no additional temps provided, or uncontrolled heat that left severe burns. Some people just don't care because the animal still lives...so that's good enough.....right?

So...maybe I'm "hard core" because I not only want my animals to live....I want them to thrive.

All this is said simply in response to the words you posted. I'm not saying in any way that YOU neglect your animals or don't work to provide the best care you can.

In the end....with all the different methods and thoughts thrown out in a thread like this....it comes down to knowing who is talking to you and what they are saying. Do your own research from trusted sources like the Barkers and McCurley.....compare that to what some folks say here....read what the people here say and how they say it....and decide who you trust and who you don't. Then you'll know how to choose the gems of wisdom and good ideas out of the pile of rhinestones that is inevitable in any such public discussion.

So I wonder for a various reasons:

Firstly, the situation can be a bit frusterating and upsetting when you've been going along fine and then somebody tells you that you are not taking very good care of your snake. That is a personal reason.

Secondly, I'm concerned about snakes being sold everyday with setups that are supposedly very unheathly. You say "We can't do anything about the 10,000 pet stores out there" but I disagree. I think something can be done. For example, stores might be persuaded to provide care sheets once the customer declines the purchase of a book. Anything like this has a much higher chance of succeeding when they are simple and the recommendations can be implemented cheaply. What if I'm a poor kid that wants a snake?

So, its not that I doubt the recommendations of experienced keepers. I totally believe that they get great results. But, I'm also old enough to know that any hobby has a certain group of hard-cores that know tons and, ironically, become out of touch with the practicalities of the mainstream casual buyer. I'm in the video game business and this happens all the time. There is always a group of hardcore players that are extremely hard to satisfy, extremely vocal, but almost always are also a small fraction of the market.

I got alot of advice from the pet store when I got my snake but, in retrospect, I didn't get the most important information in that little 20 minute time period. So, is all of this effort and knowledge being built on this site being dispersed as well as it could be? Can you see the benefit of comprimising a little on the quality of the advice in exchange for reaching a wider audience that also may be more likely to come here and get even better info?

Finally, I'm just a hard-core type myself and I like the debate and I like learning every little detail. And, perhaps, I can eventually contribute to the "state-of-the-art" of BP knowledge!

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Originally Posted by Gooseman

Bearhart, in short a snake can live off what is recommended at Petco and other chain petstores that do not fill you up with the information found here. However the question that begs to be asked is, for how long? My very first snake was a praire king snake I got when I was 7. I had EVERYTHING Petco told me I needed or wanted. Not gonna lie I'm spoiled and got what I wanted for my snake. However it lived only till I was 12. I doubt 5 years is the expected length of time a king should live for, and I fed that snake every week and followed all the instructions my pet store had given me. I have also had several other friends that have had snakes at one point and time, and in most cases the snakes have not lived anywhere near as long as they should have, even when the owner thinks they are treating their snakes like kings. If you take the proper, in detail care, such as the information you'll find here, your snake will live considerably longer/healthier and ultimately happier life. So yes, a snake can live without all the fancy set-ups and gadgetry, but once again... for how long?

The scary thing is most of my friends think its normal for a snake to live such short lives. I mean, rats don't live that long, dogs/cats are considerably larger and dont live TOO much longer. But snakes should outlive 3 generations of cats... I am glad I can be such a nerd at times and I found this site when I decided to give snakes another try. Because now my snakes live in conditions that will hopefully see them happy for another 30+ years!

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Good point Gooseman. I haven't seen anybody raise overall lifespan as a point before.

When I was learning, here's what I did. I had gone to petco for fish, and it turned out that they had an aggressive BP that needed to be adopted. I agreed to it, but only after going home, researching everything on the inernet, seeing about info "straight from the horse's mouth.." That is, from actual keepers. but being a herper before (I kept frogs and toads) I already knew that the pet stores are just usually out for a buck, and will sell over-glamorized versions of things you can make yourself. Not to mention, um.. pet stores keep their herps usually crowded into a sale tank.. bu then they tell you to house them seperately at home.. Hello. If they need seperate housing, why not, um, house them correctly at your store? I only shop at 2 local pet stores now, and it is because they practice what they preach in reptile housing.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So I wonder for a various reasons:

Firstly, the situation can be a bit frusterating and upsetting when you've been going along fine and then somebody tells you that you are not taking very good care of your snake. That is a personal reason.

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Agreed - Happened to me too. Once I understood they were genuinely acting out of concern for the animals I stopped shouting so much and started asking questions.:oops:

You got to that point a lot faster than I did by the way - well done.:D :P

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Secondly, I'm concerned about snakes being sold everyday with setups that are supposedly very unheathly. You say "We can't do anything about the 10,000 pet stores out there" but I disagree. I think something can be done. For example, stores might be persuaded to provide care sheets once the customer declines the purchase of a book. Anything like this has a much higher chance of succeeding when they are simple and the recommendations can be implemented cheaply. What if I'm a poor kid that wants a snake?

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Feel free to try, it annoys pretty much everyone on the site, but when the caresheets tell people they don't want or need the expensive stuff the pet shop is selling then they tend to stay in the box in a back storeroom.

There are shops out there already that are simply amazing and, if the customer seems to be about to avoid the book for monetary reasons, will give it to them for free in an attempt to help the animal. If I am buying something I try and find these places to give my money to in the hopes the others cease trading.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

So, its not that I doubt the recommendations of experienced keepers. I totally believe that they get great results.

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You sure?:P

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Originally Posted by bearhart

But, I'm also old enough to know that any hobby has a certain group of hard-cores that know tons and, ironically, become out of touch with the practicalities of the mainstream casual buyer. I'm in the video game business and this happens all the time. There is always a group of hardcore players that are extremely hard to satisfy, extremely vocal, but almost always are also a small fraction of the market.

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Doesn't make them wrong and video games don't die slowly and miserably or quickly and painfully as opposed to living long happy lives if you tailor your game to the lowest common denomenator.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

I got alot of advice from the pet store when I got my snake but, in retrospect, I didn't get the most important information in that little 20 minute time period. So, is all of this effort and knowledge being built on this site being dispersed as well as it could be? Can you see the benefit of comprimising a little on the quality of the advice in exchange for reaching a wider audience that also may be more likely to come here and get even better info?

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No, not really. We can't make people look for the information but it is readily available on the net and in many good books if people try and look. I don't think making our information less precise or accurate would do anything but harm. There will always be bad information disseminated via old/bad books and caresheets and from people and petshops ( not all intentionally it must be stressed). Shops need to make money and to do that they need to sell things - sometimes that over-rides their better natures. Sometimes they don't know the current recomendations on keeping the animals and sometimes they disagree with them.

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Originally Posted by bearhart

Finally, I'm just a hard-core type myself and I like the debate and I like learning every little detail. And, perhaps, I can eventually contribute to the "state-of-the-art" of BP knowledge!

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Cool - There is always so much to learn about these animals and their husbandry. The recomended way of keeping them when I started is almost completely different to what is recomended now and it's a wonder any of them survived some of the ideas going about in my day to be honest.

So recomendations evolve and, as mentioned earlier, there are varying opinions on a lot of details and current practices.


dr del

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to dr del again.

It was bumpy there for a bit but this thread has developed into an enjoyable deep discussion. To a large extent I just don't like to do anything without a reason I understand and believe and I don't like conflicting infromation. Being a champion of reason, I like debates.

Also, when the data doesn't fit the model you need a new model. This is the other benefit of challenging things from time to time - it keeps people on their toes:

Over the course of the discussion I've made some adjustments. I've got the rheostat and I've backed the temperatures down so that they max at 95/96d. Those are a little high but nearly 10d lower than before. Snakey no longer cycles between warm and cold areas and has started to burrow down to the glass. So, at this moment I'm not entirely comfortable with the situation despite the fact that I'm much more in line with the "correct" procedures. I've mentioned this a couple of times and nobody seems to notice.

I'm fairly confident that my Accurite is giving me good readings. Is my snake's change in behavior a bad sign or not? Are there any other signs that one can look for to determine if their snake is truly as warm as it should/wants to be? I've also mentioned that he was flourishing before and nobody seems to want to address that. Am I to understand that he can be eating great, growing quickly, and be completely outwardly healthy all while his health is being comprimised by excessive temps? If so, how do you tell the difference?

So come on guys! Don't leave me hangin' here! Any ideas?

if you ask me this site is a godsend, i've learned so much here in the past couple weeks it'll make your head spin, also, if you can't put out the dough to do it right then why bother, im not saying your not doing this but just in general you see that alot everywhere, people trying to do it the cheapest way possible, my trials and errors have cost me an extra couple bucks,which reminds me anyone wanna buy a brand new rheostat? :)