Lesser/Butter

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If dilute and lesser are alleles (different mutations of the same gene) I don't think it's technical to refer to a platy as a double het but I can't remember what the right term is for that. Whatever it's called I believe that the platy has one lesser gene and one dilute gene.

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Actually Randy I think it's just termed co-dominant. Which sounds kind of confusing because normally we've seen co-dominant mutant alleles paired with normal alleles. while you can only have paired alleles at any given loci you could have an infinite number of allele variations. Just because we've always seen a mutant allele paired with a normal allele in the past doesn't mean that two mutant alleles couldn't be co-dominant to each other.

Mark

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Originally Posted by Brock Wagner

Ralph has bred normal Platinum siblings together and got nothing from that pairing. There is no super dilute form. It is really weird how the Platinum gives a gene to the normal appearing sibs to make more Platinums when bred to a Lesser or Butter! Those normals have something special in them and it is not visible. Very confusing I know.

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Cool, thanks Brock. I was hoping someone with a little more knowledge of what Ralph is doing would chime in.

Some crazy genetics going on any way you look at it. If the theory Randy presented is true, it means we have a codominant allele with no pattern/color change (except when another abornomal allele is present) and no homozygous form. I'm still not sure we can jump to any conclusions as to what's happening with this morph right now :).

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Originally Posted by MarkS

Actually Randy I think it's just termed co-dominant. Which sounds kind of confusing because normally we've seen co-dominant mutant alleles paired with normal alleles. while you can only have paired alleles at any given loci you could have an infinite number of allele variations. Just because we've always seen a mutant allele paired with a normal allele in the past doesn't mean that two mutant alleles couldn't be co-dominant to each other.

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Sure, we've already seen that actually with crossed pastel lines. A Super Graziani/Lemon Pastel would be an example. But this would be the first example (I'm aware of) that a codominant allele has a wild-type phenotype unless combined with a mutant allele of the same loci. I'm not saying the theory isn't valid... but whacky genetics any way you look at it.

What really boggles the mind is that the Platinum was produced in the wild. :eek:

Ken you have it, I'm just not sure what the best way to denote it is.

I was thinking of using the same letter for all versions of the gene but a two letter combination for each version because there are so many. It would be nice if I knew how to make subscripts but that also might require this forum to support html. The two letters aren't meant to indicate a combination of genes and subscripting could help to show that. Also, by using the same base letter it shows that the entire complex (in this theory) are all the same gene, just different versions.

Here is a possible notation for each individual version of the gene:

w = normal version of the whitesnake complex gene
wd = dilute version of the whitesnake complex gene
Wl = lesser version of the whitesnake complex gene
Wb = butter version of the whitesnake complex gene
Wm = mojave version of the whitesnake complex gene
Wp = phantom version of the whitesnake complex gene
Wr = Russo version of the whitesnake complex gene
Wc = possible crystal version of the whitesnake complex gene

Since they are all the same gene (just different versions - alleles is the technical term) any one snake can only have two copies and at most two versions (one from each parent).

Some well known pairings of these alleles would be:

Wl Wp = karma leucistic
Wl wd = platty daddy
Wb wd = daddy butter
w wd = dilute het normal looking offspring from platy X normal (lesser sibling)

And a couple theoretical ones
Wc Wm = crystal
w Wc = crystal mom

Ralph did cross lots of the platy offspring lesser siblings without reporting anything out of the ordinary so it would seem that the homozygous dilute is as normal looking as the het dilute. That cross w wd X w wd should have produced 25% normals (w w), 50% het dilutes (w wd), and 25% homozygous dilutes (wd wd). Either the homozygous didn't hatch or they couldn't be identified by sight.

Hard to make a readable Punnett square but here is an attempt:

Platy (wd Wl) X Normal (w w)




.........wd..........Wl
w......w.wd.......w.Wl
w......w.wd.......w.Wl

Each egg has a 50/50 chance of being a lesser (w Wl) or a dilute het (w wd) but none of the lesser would carry the dilute gene (or they would be platy already).

The problem with the wd wd X wd wd breedings is that you apparently can’t know for sure which of the 25% possible homozygous dilutes are wd wd.

Here is a cross that under this theory could produce a known homozygous dilute:

Platy (wd Wl) X Platy (wd Wl)

.........wd.........Wl
wd....wd.wd...wd.Wl
Wl.....wd.Wl...Wl.Wl

This works out to:

25% chance homozygous lesser (a very clean leucistic) - Wl Wl
50% chance platy - wd Wl
25% chance homzoygous dilute - wd wd

Under this theory if you crossed a pair of platys any normal looking offspring would be homozygous dilute.

Take one of those wd wd homozygous dilute and cross them with a Wl Wl leucistic and you would get:

.........Wl.........Wl
wd....wd.Wl....wd.Wl
wd....wd.Wl....wd.Wl

the offspring would be 100% platy (wd Wl).

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Originally Posted by MarkS

True, it is co-dominant. However, I don't think 'Super' is an accepted scientific term, but heterozygous is.

Mark

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Without a doubt calling a lesser a "het" for BEL is indeed correct and 100% accurate, but with ball python breeding most people use the term "het" to refer to a non visual expression of a snake morph (ie. pied or albino). If someone is already having problems understanding co-dom traits, I just think referring to a co-dom as a het (which it really is) just confuses them even more. That's all... :2cent:

So, who can tell me what this is???

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/cnsnake3.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/cnsnake2.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g2...s/cnsnake1.jpg

Is it a lesser or is it a butter????


Mark

I'm no expert, but it looks like a lesser to me.

He was sold to me as a lesser, but he has so much yellow on him and looks a lot like most pics I've seen of butters that I've always kind of wondered about that.

Mark he looks like a Lesser to me. Nice looking snake!


Brock

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Originally Posted by panthercz

I'm no expert, but it looks like a lesser to me.

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Ditto. :)

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What really boggles the mind is that the Platinum was produced in the wild.

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hahaha, let me ask you this: if the modern theory of evolution and natural selection is correct, then how did cobras suddenly get a complex system of long teeth with tubes leading to a gland full of a self-producing enzyme that disolves blood or fries the nervous system of its prey? And if it this one snake did just APPEAR in a clutch one day, then how did this ONE "morph" become the dominant trait throughout the world? And what happened to all the venomless cobras out there when other venomless species like Ball Pythons didn't disappear?

*insert twilight zone music here!*

So, personally, it really doesn't boggle my mind, lol. Maybe it just appeared by divine intervention for Ralph Davis to make a fortune! HAHA