The effects of ball pythons on the reptile community

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Well said.



I can understand why the average herper would want an attractive aquarium setup - but the thing to keep in mind is that all those plants and nooks and crannies are breeding ground for bacteria and other ill stuff - so all of those things that supposedly look 'natural' are really for the keeper and not the snake. I think that the success of keeping healthy ball pythons in rack systems is a testament to the fact that ball pythons don't necessarily *need* all of that natural flora to maintain an overall positive well being.

Don't think I'm saying that natural viv's are bad for ball pythons nor are their keepers for setting them up like that. For me, even with my relatively small collection, maintaining a group set up like that would be a full-time job.

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Excellent points!

I think for someone who is beginner with only one ball python such as myself tubs are also good because they are easy to setup and clean. These are conveniences that directly influence the health of our animals in captivity.

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

.....but the thing to keep in mind is that all those plants and nooks and crannies are breeding ground for bacteria and other ill stuff -

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...that makes me think of a few things....

1. Why does all the bacteria have to be 'bad'? Bacteria decomposes waste as seen in successful bioactive soil systems used for geckos and chameleons. It is possible to have a healthy amount of bacteria......it just takes a bit more understanding on the keepers part. Could this type of keeping approach be used to keep ball pythons?....and could it compare to tubs? Since people are 'attached' to keeping in tubs will anyone even attempt other methods?

2. Since some seem to believe that the 'rack system' provide as 'sterile-ish' type environment for reptiles.....could the lack of exposure to bacteria cause weaker animals in the long run? ....For example, I keep my ball python on soil...you keep yours on paper in a tub.....then we expose both to a unheathy amount of bacteria....would there be any difference in reaction? would one be more prone to sickness when exposed?

I think some people see 'rack systems' as something that is restricting expanding the possibilities of keeping. Rack systems are proven.....but it took work to prove that. With everyone focusing on Racks, will another method of keeping ever be 'proven'? Are we limiting ourselves by not 'trying new things'?


Here is a good question......How is the keeping of ball pythons making any progress forward other than more morphs being created?

I think these issues are great for discussion....

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

I think some people see 'rack systems' as something that is restricting expanding the possibilities of keeping. Rack systems are proven.....but it took work to prove that. With everyone focusing on Racks, will another method of keeping ever be 'proven'? Are we limiting ourselves by not 'trying new things'?

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As soon as someone shows me a better way, I'll jump right on that train. At the moment, with the information available today, I am a believer in rack systems. Again, I've got to reiterate the point that this is by no means the ONLY way to successfully keep ball pythons. I will, however, go out on a limb and say that this is the best way to maintain a large colony of ball pythons at the present moment and will be, I believe, for some time.

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

Here is a good question......How is the keeping of ball pythons making any progress forward other than more morphs being created?

I think these issues are great for discussion....

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Ask some older herpers to look back 20 years. If you say that the captive husbandry of ball pythons hasn't progessed and isn't progressing today, you're crazy.

Now that this has turned into a caging thread...any other takes on why a part of the reptile community hates us?? :P

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

As soon as someone shows me a better way, I'll jump right on that train.

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If everyone thought that way......no 'better way' would ever be developed. Would the people who started keeping snakes in racks today be here if someone was not the first to 'try it'?...

That is kinda the point that I was trying to hit. I know all about the things that were tried in the past.....but that was the past. There are alot more reptile keepers now and we have alot more knowledge, so why not try something different?

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Ask some older herpers to look back 20 years. If you say that the captive husbandry of ball pythons hasn't progessed and isn't progressing today, you're crazy.

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I know all about the past. I am talking about the keeping of ball pythons CURRENTLY. How are we progessing forward from our CURRENT state? Sure we have genetic/morphs being figured out everyday and a few things are being tried with breeding....but what else is new?


...and Brad...I am just playing devils advocate here based off a few of my ideas and opinions that have been presented by others.... I keep my snakes in a rack like you.....just trying to stir up some interesting conversation ;)

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Originally Posted by elevatethis

Now that this has turned into a caging thread...any other takes on why a part of the reptile community hates us?? :P

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.....lol.....from the reasons that I have seen so far (here and other places) most relate to money in some sort....more scammers....overpriced snakes....animals as commodities.....too much biz and not enough hobby....everyone and their brother wants to be breeders and make millions....people don't like that kinda 'attitude'...

....nothing we have not been exposed to before.

...the housing and 'progessing husbandry' are the only two things I have seen outside of the money issues.....LOL

I used to work for a real old-school herper...I was just getting into ball pythons at the time and he thought I was crazy...to him, from his years of experience in the reptile hobby/trade, they were a dime a dozen and not too exciting. No one ever thought that the popularity of ball pythons (thanks primarily to the variety of exciting morphs) would explode like they have.

Maybe all of those old school herpers feel left behind, so there's got to be some resentment there...maybe a little bit of that "I've been around longer than all of these new guys"...that elitist attitude.

I think there are a lot of those "lone-wolf" types in the reptile hobby and whenever something that those people like gets very popular...whether its the band they listened to before they were popular or the snake they passed on for other things....theres some resentment there. Just my 10.32....

I wouldn't worry too much about different groups of keepers dissing other groups...this is the normal mode of operation for all hobbies!


I am into Jeeps and Fish, and both groups of enthusiasts tend to look down on the 'common' or the 'easy to keep/do' parts of the hobby. Its elitism plain and simple and it is BS.

People naturally like a challenge, and some people get greater rewards from greater challenges. The fact that BP's are relatively easy to keep and a good snake for novice herpers is all the reason the elitists need to try to elevate themselves by denegrating others.

it's BS...ignore it :)

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

How are we progessing forward from our CURRENT state? Sure we have genetic/morphs being figured out everyday and a few things are being tried with breeding....but what else is new?

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I think that we're learning TONS!! ... From really beginning to understand the reproductive "mystery" of these animals to new ways to treat respiratory infections to better understanding temperature requirements ... etc, etc, etc ... I've seen so much change in the last 2 years alone it's crazy!!!

-adam

As someone outside the ball python circle, my really one beef is the morph issue. I saw some of the genetic bad stuff first hand at Daytona last year. The table next to us had all kinds of bp morphs as well as other boid morphs. They were a jobber and produced nothing on their table. I freaked out when I saw the behavior of the spider balls they were selling. I actually thought there was some type of desease involved and affraid for our emeralds. I actually went looking at different ball breeders tables to see if any of their spiders acted that way. Most did and after asking others about the behavior, learned that this was "normal" for spiders.

I am not a radical when it comes to inbreeding (linebreeding), it is just something I disagree with and will never knowingly do. The bp market is growing so fast that there has to be pressure to produce the popular morphs and I have a feeling that some may forgo common sense and maybe carry the line breeding too far. I have a feeling that unlike most hobbiests, big breeders consider their animals as livestock and not pets, with the market being the driving force behind their mass production. With that maybe some animals that should have been culled (meaning sold as non-breeders) have been sold with maybe some misinformation about their origins or genetic viability.

Craig