Super Spider and other stuff....

Even if I wanted to make prices come down I'm under no allusion that I could have any significant long-term impact. If a theory of mine that's deemed negative where to be right then the info would eventually come out without me. If there is some small impact from my theory with no proof there should be a much larger price correction when the informed information eventually surfaces with or without my theory coming first. If a theory is incorrect it should be very easy to produce data to discredit it (i.e. someone claim the suspected homozygous spider, tell us what it's like, and how many only spiders it has produced).

Just because I recognize that morph prices almost always go down with time doesn't mean I somehow make it happen or that I even want it to happen. It's just the nature of the supply and demand system. I would actually worry about a morph that didn’t increase supply with time. I’m attributing the rare exception of ghost pricing to increased demand for a morph that used to be considered near normal but is now recognized to make awesome combos. At least I hope a plague didn’t devastate one of the big ghost collections of the few people to appreciate their potential before the combos.

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I don't feel that anyone has any responsibility to share any information with window shoppers. Information IS shared with the people supporting the industry by putting money into it.

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But I've already pointed out (in other debates) two examples of spider buyers NOT being informed of the spinning issue. And those are just the two I've happened to stumble on in public postings. I would hope there were some reputable breeders who saw that their customers were well informed but I don't think we can count on it happening universally. Once a morph becomes publicly traded I believe the information on that morph should also be public.

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... but if you're waiting for the big guys to address the masses on a public forum it's just not going to happen ... at least I hope that it never does ... because in the end, all that will do is give the window shoppers and the bottom feeders more ammo to try and pick apart the hobby that I love over something as petty as jealousy.

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Here is the crux of our disagreement. I'd like to promote an industry that is open enough not to need defending with secrets. Surely most morphs and marketing practices can stand up to public scrutiny. If there are some that can’t should they really be defended?

why isnt your website up to date?

Kinda off topic, but here I go....

I understand that some of you like openly distributed info on the internet. I love the stuff, but there is a certain line that needs to be drawn. I can find all kinda information available on the net that is complete bull.....open information works with both good and bad info. Usually the bad info comes from people that do not know the whole story or background about a subject. I work with gathering information all day and have developed a hatred of bad information. I deal with this all the time with my research on the effects of the hurricanes.....all kinda myths and garbage on the net about that stuff. So you know what I have done?.....I said 'the hell with the internet'. All my information comes from direct sources.....I talk to city engineers and people that work with the problems everyday...that is the ONLY way to get good information in alot of situations.

For some reason people that have not experienced things themselves like to talk about the problems, put stuff under 'public scrutiny', and then demand answers to problems that do not even have a direct effect on them. These people do more harm than good.....and they help contribute to the spread of bad information to the public.

What makes me sad is that I see this crap in the ball python industry. So now my work and hobby are filled with garbage info from the internet.

So before anyone starts talking about any topic or giving out information. Be sure you answer three simple questions and clarify the answers to your audience. What qualifies you to form an opinion about a subject? What type of experience do you have to discuss this topic? Who/what are your sources of information?

From those three question, you can learn alot about someone and how much crap they are packing.

So after all this rambling.....Just a bit of advice to all:

If you are uneducated on a subject, don't talk about it and save yourself the embarassment. If you have no experience with the subject and you are talking to people that are experienced, no one cares what you have to say and they will laugh at you behind your back(or even to your face). If your sources have correct information then you should make them know to everyone involved in the discussion so they know what type of ground you are standing on. Get information from listening to the horse's mouth instead of its a$$.



Oh ya....and Randy...

Should everyone place an animal under public scrutiny because of somebody's theory? Who are the people in the ball python community that spread rumors? Who are these people that discuss topics that they have no experience with?

You should be more worried about those questions than the ones that you regularly like to ask.

mr~python,

I've been lazy and only updating the parts of my site where I had something worth updating but I'm getting motivated now to redo the index page too. Not sure yet if I want to put the wild theories right on that first page or link them off.


daniel1983,

You have some good points and I'll be extra careful that I don't start stating my theories as facts. I do think anyone is qualified to ask questions though.

The one place I do tend to get a little factual is on basic genetics. If the standard to be qualified to discuss genetics in ball python circles where very high I'm not sure any genetics talk would be posted. I make mistakes in explaining genetics from time to time and appreciate being corrected as we seem to all be learning this together.

As far as wild theories go, I think I'm the undisputed authority.

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Should everyone place an animal under public scrutiny because of somebody's theory?

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Only if they want to head off the rumors. If the truth is worse than the rumors they will likely keep quite.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

At least I hope a plague didn’t devastate one of the big ghost collections of the few people to appreciate their potential before the combos.

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You've got to be kidding me right? See, this is the kind of garbage that makes you look like those guys that claim NASA faked the moon landing. Your sense of humor is completely lost among your pages and pages of tedious text and people read stuff like that and think it's true.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

But I've already pointed out (in other debates) two examples of spider buyers NOT being informed of the spinning issue.

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Then maybe those people should have purchased from reputable breeders. Public disclosure of information or not, shady people are going to buy animals, reproduce them, and sell the offspring ... and sometimes those shady people will do ANYTHING to make a sale. That's why it's a good thing that we have such reputable people out there selling animals ... breeders like NERD, RDR, VPI, TSK, MKR ... all of these people will tell you EVERYTHING you need to know before you spend your money because they are professionals. Like I said, support the big breeders and you will be rewarded with the information you desire ... take a shortcut by trying to find a discount with someone shady and you'll probably get burnt one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I would hope there were some reputable breeders who saw that their customers were well informed but I don't think we can count on it happening universally.

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We can't? Well then how come there is not one thread on the BOI from someone complaining that they bought a spider from a big breeder and wasn't informed of the background of the morph? If the pros didn't disclose information to their customers, they would pretty quickly be taken down a couple of notches. Same reason you can count on the big guys for selling hets ... because if they were to sell normals as hets, sooner or later it would catch up with them and they can't risk that because they have families to feed.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

Once a morph becomes publicly traded I believe the information on that morph should also be public.

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The information IS public, you just have to do some work to get it.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I'd like to promote an industry that is open enough not to need defending with secrets.

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Randy, in all the years you've been around I've NEVER seen you PROMOTE anything or say anything even remotely positive about the ball python industry. All you do is correct people, throw stones, and make $ht up. If you'd really like to promote an open industry, get off the couch, call all the big breeders up, gather the information and publish it. Be the small stone that starts the avalanche. Sitting around crying about secrecy and pining for the big breeders to join hands and sing Kum-by-ya obviously isn't working for you. YOU have the power to bring on the changes that you want to see ... put your energy where your mouth is and get it done.

-adam

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Originally Posted by daniel1983

All my information comes from direct sources.....I talk to city engineers and people that work with the problems everyday...that is the ONLY way to get good information in alot of situations.

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That's the saddest part of this whole deal Daniel. The REAL information IS out there for Randy to get straight from the horses mouth, yet he doesn't even try.

He relies on second hand accounts and rumors posted on internet message boards for his information without any way of knowing how credible or experienced the poster of the information may or may not be. In some cases he's even quoted statements by people that have political axes to grind and were deliberately spreading misinformation to discredit the breeder that they were "warring" with. In another case, he was once quoting information provided by a 2 bit jobber that wouldn't know the inside of the ball python business if it landed on his head. It's just totally irresponsible how he chooses to spread erroneous information posted by chest puffing, axe grinding, wanna bee’s as if it was factual.

It boggles my mind that one or two phone calls could clear up all of the information he feels the need to imagine wild theories for because he claims there is no information available, yet the guy refuses to pick up the phone?

I must ask, if he won't make a simple phone call, what is his REAL agenda?

-adam

oh ok, just wondering.

oh, and that strange female that i think you said you got from a petshop looks a lot like a phantom to me.(IMHO)

I just wish she would lay some eggs.

As far as the ghosts, it certainly wasn't something I consider a humors mater. I'm just not sure the demand side completely explains the long running high price of ghosts. Maybe there was a supply side problem. I remember someone claiming to have a large number of ghosts before the crosses came out (like 5 years ago). He should be able to produce hundreds and hundreds of them a year by now if all went well. Maybe the market really is absorbing that many at the current price or maybe all didn't go well.

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

As far as the ghosts, it certainly wasn't something I consider a humors mater. I'm just not sure the demand side completely explains the long running high price of ghosts. Maybe there was a supply side problem. I remember someone claiming to have a large number of ghosts before the crosses came out (like 5 years ago). He should be able to produce hundreds and hundreds of them a year by now if all went well. Maybe the market really is absorbing that many at the current price or maybe all didn't go well.

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You've got to be kidding me! ... Ok, so here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is Randy ... If you honestly believe in the whole "full public disclosure" garbage that you spew on thread after thread, how about you share the name of the breeder that you are suggesting had his entire ghost collection wiped out by a plague?

If there really should be no secrets, here is your chance to lead by example. Put the name out there. Should be a pretty simple thing to do. Unless you are full of it and just trying to create doubt and distrust within the ball python market ... then of course you'll come up with some lame excuse about why you can't give out the name or your don't remember it or some junk like that.

Name the name and I'll get that breeder over here and we'll talk about what happened to the large collection of ghosts he had before the combos came out and why there aren't millions of them today.

Your chance to either shine or burn Randy ... do you have the balls for it?

-adam

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how about you share the name of the breeder that you are suggesting had his entire ghost collection wiped out by a plague?

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I said there was a breeder who claimed to have a lot of ghosts and that I wonder why there doesn't seem to be more of them now. The plague theory was just a possible explanation. I didn't say I had even heard of it happening to a ghost collection, just that it was one possible explanation. I don't pay much attention to names and probably didn't even know the breeders name at the time. It sounded like he was heavily focused on ghosts around 2000 - 2001 so maybe you can fill us in on the name and where those ghosts are now.

So, are you willing to put the plague concept as a possible explanation for supply problems to rest and say that there aren't large breeders who have lost large parts of their collections?