Caramels - Are they worth purchasing?

I fell like chiming in. I am relatively new to ball python breeding. My son's interest sparked my interest. We have exactly 3 normal females, 1 male fire, 1 male lemon pastel, and 1 female pinstripe.
After much discussion, we decided to not purchase a spider, even though bumble bees were the original inspiration for my son's interest. This was due to the wobble issue. I couldn't reproduce that with a clear conscience realizing that every animal I produce is in existence because of me. I don't care about the percentage of probability. I don't care about profit potential. I don't want to see an animal wobble or spin because of my own desires to produce something I think looks cool. I will not be working with any caramels for the same reason. I do not know enough about the ultramel to say anything other than it is completely out of my price range. Both are beautiful and I wish there wasn't these kink issues. I'm not in it for the money, and I couldn't do it knowing in advance that there is a good probability that there could be issues.
I just thought some prospective from the purely hobby end might help with the business end prospective. If I am out of line commenting here, please disregard.

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Originally Posted by Kristian

I fell like chiming in. I am relatively new to ball python breeding. My son's interest sparked my interest. We have exactly 3 normal females, 1 male fire, 1 male lemon pastel, and 1 female pinstripe.
After much discussion, we decided to not purchase a spider, even though bumble bees were the original inspiration for my son's interest. This was due to the wobble issue. I couldn't reproduce that with a clear conscience realizing that every animal I produce is in existence because of me. I don't care about the percentage of probability. I don't care about profit potential. I don't want to see an animal wobble or spin because of my own desires to produce something I think looks cool. I will not be working with any caramels for the same reason. I do not know enough about the ultramel to say anything other than it is completely out of my price range. Both are beautiful and I wish there wasn't these kink issues. I'm not in it for the money, and I couldn't do it knowing in advance that there is a good probability that there could be issues.
I just thought some prospective from the purely hobby end might help with the business end prospective. If I am out of line commenting here, please disregard.

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Kristian -- Welcome to the CRAZY :rolleye2:, INFURIATING :mad:, PATIENCE TESTING :weirdface, MOSTLY REWARDING :banana: rollercoaster world of ball pythons!! I think it is fantastic that you are involved in the hobby with your son -- great family fun for sure!!!

All opinions are welcome on a forum -- or at least should be. Caramels kink -- end of story -- or is it???

I am working with 3 different lines of Caramels and have acquired quite a bit more Caramel stock through trades recently. People are selling Caramel stock short and either getting out of the "pink morph" business all together or moving into Ultramels. I say to each his own. "Hurray for the difference" as they say. ;)

I am "bullish" on Caramels when you consider their price-point -- when compared to Ultramels AND do the fact the I made 8 perfect Caramels/Caramel Mojaves in 09 -- NO KINKED visuals -- 8 for 8. Beginners luck, outcrossing, Mojave gene inhibited inclination for kinking, odds have not caught up with me yet and 5 of the next 12 Caramels I produce will be "trainwrecks" -- time will tell.

Nobody enjoys putting an animals down that will not live on its own. I am sure I will produce a kinked Caramel in the future -- more than one I suspect. I respect anyone's right/opinion/choice not to work with Caramels because of kinking.

You mentioned knowing enough about Ultramels -- nobody knows all that much really -- at least here in the U.S.. Maybe Vin Russo? Only one combo has been done -- the Camarillo which is half Caramel (Vin produced it) -- I love the irony!!!!

Will Ultramel combos look better/worse than Caramels combined with same morph? Will those Ultramel combos be more, or less, variable than Caramel combos? Will the Ultramel display kinking? If someone says they have any of these answers -- they are privy to information that has not yet been made public. Maybe those answers are on the "deep web" my neighbor Bud has been telling me about over the fence every so often. :confused: :D

I just bet its something breeders like you are Mark Mandic are doing differently and if, even by accident, you continue to do enough of it you might not start seeing kinked caramels either.

So, what rat food do your feeders eat?

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Originally Posted by RandyRemington

I just bet its something breeders like you are Mark Mandic are doing differently and if, even by accident, you continue to do enough of it you might not start seeing kinked caramels either.

So, what rat food do your feeders eat?

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Randy -- Missouri is what my guy feeds. I have asked him about it based on your nutritional suspitions to the Caramel issue --as well as the general health and growth of my animals. He prefers it over Harlan. He feels his mice and rats do better. That nutrition would possible be passed on to the "consumers" ;) I am going to do as close to exactly what I did with regards to feeding, incubation, and breeding.

My Caramel Mojave male is 400 grams and has sperm plugs. I will give him another 2-3 months to get some more size (I like 600+ grams :)) and see how he does with a few ladies.

I think that's Mazuri. Missouri is where I live! :rofl:

Gale

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Originally Posted by angllady2

I think that's Mazuri. Missouri is where I live! :rofl:

Gale

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My bad!! I have only heard it -- never seen it!! Thanks much for the help and "SHOWing me". :gj:

In this thread Markus reports producing over 60 caramels with no kinks feeding Mazuri 6F and then switching to Purina custom blend:

http://www.reptileradio.net/reptiler...t=12137&page=3

Not sure when he made the switch relative to when those caramels where produced but if I where working with caramels just in case I would be feeding the moms live rats with bellies full of fresh Mazuri based on both you and he reporting that product.

If there is something to the Mazuri link it could be something that neither rats nor ball pythons are supposed to need like vitamin C or copper or a trace mineral only needed because of the caramel mutation. Might not even make it the best food for other ball python feeders but just a fluke for caramels.

Does make me wonder if there could be some similar statistical link behind claims of large numbers of non spinning spiders.

I might give Markus a call today -- I owe him one anyway. :D Would like to know his latest with feeder food and Caramel breeding and hatching reesults and any "unclassified plans for 2010.

I will also ask my feeder guy ( also named Bill ;)) today when he delivers whether there is a vitamin/mineral breakdown for Mazuri and other feeds -- would be interesting to compare like and dislike ingredients. I'll post any findings in this thread for sure. :salute:

interesting info Bill and Randy :)

The only reason i don't have an ultramel just now, is because i have a caramel. At the time when i was offered them, i discussed with the mrs, and we both agreed they look too similar at the time. Obviously with them being completely different and kink free, there is some desire to have them, but i haven't even hatched a caramel yet, so i'll keep plugging away at my caramel's until the ultramels are less expensive i reckon. I will still breed my caramel girl, she's a giant.. just needs to lay me some eggs! :lol: I don't have loads of caramels to breed, and i probably won't keep that many.. i'll have to see what we hatch out first.