Wiggles, the Children's Python

Did you mean to say that your wife "does not mind" keeping them in your freezer? ;)

I'm glad Wiggles took to the Reptilinks so easily, & especially that your local shop helped you make the deal so you didn't have to buy three years worth with only one snake to feed. Of course you also could have gotten more snakes.:rofl: (I'm a bad influence!)

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Did you mean to say that your wife "does not mind" keeping them in your freezer? ;)

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That's right. Antagonizing my wife doesn't benefit me or Wiggles. We both dearly depend on her good graces.

Wiggles's new favorite hiding spot is curiously warm.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/jffyzA8.jpg

It's this warm because his radiant heat panel is directly below it. What's more, this spot is under our Christmas tree skirt which presumably traps the rising heat.

When I started, I kept his basking spot between 85 - 90F. Then I bumped it up to 90 - 95F and noticed a marked increase in activity and appetite. Do I dare bump it up to 95-100F? Having kept a ball python for years, those temperature seem dangerous, but they are not outside the range given in some care guides for Antaresia pythons (most notably the one from Reptile magazine.)

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Wiggles's new favorite hiding spot is curiously warm.

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/jffyzA8.jpg

It's this warm because his radiant heat panel is directly below it. What's more, this spot is under our Christmas tree skirt which presumably traps the rising heat.

When I started, I kept his basking spot between 85 - 90F. Then I bumped it up to 90 - 95F and noticed a marked increase in activity and appetite. Do I dare bump it up to 95-100F? Having kept a ball python for years, those temperature seem dangerous, but they are not outside the range given in some care guides for Antaresia pythons (most notably the one from Reptile magazine.)

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If Wiggles is digesting properly - no lumps in 2 days with an appropriate sized meal - and has an appetite and normal waste, I wouldn't push the issue on temps.

The purpose of temp control, in my mind, is to aid proper digestion and stimulate natural/"appropriate" behavior. If you are doing that, don't raise temps.

Let's say that Wiggles can handle 100F, but not 103F without damage, short or long-term. Why risk it? That's a small margin of error.

Shayna - BP - as you mentioned, likes no more than 90F and much more can be dangerous. I keep her hot side about 86-88F, with a spot here or there at 90-91F (literally a spot or two - I'll get to that in a second). This gives my redundant thermostats a few degrees of heat before shutting down the heat, but not to a dangerous level for her.

The other thing is what will raising the heat do to the cool side in the tank? My boas can handle 90F+ on the hot side, but even in a 6X2X1' tank, much more and the cool side is too hot for them. They like a 80F cool side +/-, but if I push hot side temps then the cool side gets to 82-84F, which is more like ambient temps for them and they get restless.

My corn snakes have hot spots of 84-86F and a cool side at 75-78F depending on time of year (I use no heating elements on their cool sides). If the temp on the hot side gets too warm AND their cool side gets above 78F or so, they are cruising. They are not happy. Too much heat equates to too much stimulation and they are uncomfortable. Can a corn snake handle 90F, sure, but they won't like for prolonged periods, and what does that do the temps in the rest of the tank. Keep in mind overstimulated animals can get hungrier quicker and if uncomfortable don't really know how to tell you. This could lead to biting or other behavior, but more importantly, it could be bothering your snake.

Now, the spots. I use RHP's and heat tape on all my tanks. It's impossible to keep every inch of the hot side the desired temp. I hit about 6 spots in a 1-2FTX2FT area in my tanks to test hot side temps. If 5 spots are 88-91F, and one spot is 94F, for my Boas, for example, that's okay. 90%+ of the area is ideal temp and 1 spot is a little high. I can also have a spot that's 86F and the average is 90F. Not a big deal. Nature isn't perfect and nether is keeping snakes in captivity, for a lot of reasons. Pros are we can control the environment, but the cons include being human and making mistakes or thinking we can improve things without consequence.

One final thought is Yafe, my CP. He can also handle higher temps. 93-95F. However, although there is a spot or two on his basking branch/PVC pipe below the RHP that gets that hot, I keep his hot side on the basking branch about 90-92F and it's 88-90F on the ground below. He will use those areas briefly when digesting, usually right after eating, but spend 90% of his digestion on the hot side where it's 86-88F at the front lift of the tank, just in front of the heat panel, but on the heat tape. He knows and I follow his lead. This doesn't mean I make it as hot as possible and see how he does, but I give him a range and he chooses what's best for him. The other thing, as mentioned, is the cool side. If I made his tank hotter on the hot side, he'd be too warm on the cool side as well. Gradients are good, but proper temps are important too. Both hot and cool side.

Bottom line, Wiggles is doing great and I'd stick with what's working.

EDIT: On the top of the tank, his belly might be warm/hot, but the ambient temp in the room is much lower (I presume). He could be compensating. However, in the tank, getting the ground to that temp could cause the hot side to be too hot in general, depending on how you are heating it (forgive me for not remembering your setup and also humoring other people who might read this for their benefit).

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Originally Posted by dakski

Let's say that Wiggles can handle 100F, but not 103F without damage, short or long-term. Why risk it? That's a small margin of error.

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You reasoning is unassailable. I am persuaded. I would still like to give him access to 100F degrees when I can do so safely. Currently, I use those cheap on/off thermostats, so I can only maintain temps within 5F degree range. I'll revisit the issue once I've upgraded my thermostats.

I tried feeding a Reptilink without scenting it. No dice. He struck it repeatedly. but released it each time. Then, I scented it with a hopper. He took it without delay. I guess I'll have to keep scenting it for a while.

Couple things. Target training is going well. I've been targeting Wiggles out of his enclosure onto his activity station and that's been going well. It's easy because he likes to come out of his enclosure and he likes to eat, so he's double motivated. Targeting him back into his enclosure is more of a challenge. He has to choose between food and freedom. He motives are mixed. Tonight hunger won out and I succeeded. I thought it would. You see Wiggles has been pretty hungry the past couple days and that brings me to my second thing.

I decided to feed Wiggles on a 9 day schedule. My Reptilink pack has 40 links so on a 9 day schedule they'll last the year. Reptilinks are also higher in calories, so I thought the change was appropriate. It still might be, but for the past couple days (days 6 and 7 on his schedule), Wiggles has been acting very hungry. Last night, he stuck at my daughter. Tried for her face. He missed, but scared her pretty good. She ended up laughing it off, but it got me to wondering why he struck, "Food or fear?" Tonight he took a swipe at my hand, and I decided it was food.

So, I'm not surprised tonight's targeting session went well. I knew he'd be super motivated. My 9 day feeding schedule has been called into question. Time will tell. Let's see how long this link lasts him.

I'm glad that at least he didn't "connect" with anyone. Hungry snakes have been known to forget their manners- & since he missed, I assume your hand & her face were far enough away that he wasn't identifying either of you very well- most likely going for the "warm & wiggling" potential prey. Were you holding him when he tried for your hand? I assume not, or he'd have caught you, so I'm assuming he didn't have the advantage of your (or her) scent & touch, just played a couple bad hunches. Silly little snek! It's far more concerning when they have all the right cues (scent & touch) & bite anyway. Honest mistakes are easily forgivable.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I assume your hand & her face were far enough away that he wasn't identifying either of you very well- most likely going for the "warm & wiggling" potential prey. Were you holding him when he tried for your hand? I assume not, or he'd have caught you, so I'm assuming he didn't have the advantage of your (or her) scent & touch, just played a couple bad hunches.

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Correct on all counts. Wiggles was on his activity station both times. We were sitting next to it. I reached out to touch the station and he made a half-hearted strike. His strike at my daughter was so surprising because I had just been nose to nose with him. Then, he did a complete 180 and lunged at her. I'm surprised she was even on his radar.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

Correct on all counts. Wiggles was on his activity station both times. We were sitting next to it. I reached out to touch the station and he made a half-hearted strike. His strike at my daughter was so surprising because I had just been nose to nose with him. Then, he did a complete 180 and lunged at her. I'm surprised she was even on his radar.

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I think this is part of why snakes get such a bad rap- we assume other animals visually identify everything the way we do, but I've seen it many times where a snake is a very short distance from us- maybe after we just set them down, but suddenly they don't recognize us & they lash out- mistaking us either for prey or a predator. It's the way their reptile brains work- I've always found that for me the best way not to get bit is by keeping a snake close to me. Once there is space between you, there's room for them to misinterpret & make mistakes. Scent & touch are to a snake what language is to us.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I think this is part of why snakes get such a bad rap- we assume other animals visually identify everything the way we do, but I've seen it many times where a snake is a very short distance from us- maybe after we just set them down, but suddenly they don't recognize us & they lash out- mistaking us either for prey or a predator. It's the way their reptile brains work- I've always found that for me the best way not to get bit is by keeping a snake close to me. Once there is space between you, there's room for them to misinterpret & make mistakes. Scent & touch are to a snake what language is to us.

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I just read this in Boas and Pythons of the World, "Snakes can detect motion owing to the structure of the retina, which is armed with more rods rather than cones, and provides vision similar to a mammal's peripheral vision with its 'all or nothing' response. They cannot detect colour or shape." Very illuminating.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I just read this in Boas and Pythons of the World, "Snakes can detect motion owing to the structure of the retina, which is armed with more rods rather than cones, and provides vision similar to a mammal's peripheral vision with its 'all or nothing' response. They cannot detect colour or shape." Very illuminating.

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Is this all snakes or just boas & pythons? My previous sources have said they (snakes) can see some color, but maybe the overall knowledge has changed & is now updated? My own experience with many snakes does suggest they don't visually make out "shapes" -to recognize us, for example. But I've also observed that some snakes appear to have much better eyesight than others. Either way, I make regular use of scent & touch cues to communicate with all my snakes. 'Cause I don't like bites, & I don't like snakes living in fear of the unknown.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Is this all snakes or just boas & pythons?

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All snakes, but it's an old book (2007). It wouldn't surprise me, if more recent scholarship found some species can see color. But if a world renown herpetologist thought that snakes can see neither shape nor color, it stands to reason that they see very differently than we do. So, we shouldn't be surprised when they fail to recognize us visually.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

All snakes, but it's an old book (2007). It wouldn't surprise me, if more recent scholarship found some species can see color. But if a world renown herpetologist thought that snakes can see neither shape nor color, it stands to reason that they see very differently than we do. So, we shouldn't be surprised when they fail to recognize us visually.

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Also, there's no reason to think that all 3000+ species of snakes that differ widely in their methods of survival are all going to have the same sort of visual ability. I think it's more likely that active diurnal hunters will have superior vision to nocturnal ambush-predators, but I don't don't know that for a fact, only that it seems that way to me, from what I've kept.

So, transitioning to Reptilinks is proving to be more challenging than I thought. The first time I fed him a Reptilink, I just scented the link by rubbing it on a hopper. He took it no problem. The second time I tried not scenting it. When that didn't work, I scented it, as before, and he took it just fine. Last night, I tried lightly scenting half of the link. When that didn't work, I scented it as before. When that didn't work, I paired it with a mouse tail. When that didn't work, I slathered it in mouse entrails. That worked.

However, I don't want to keep buying mice in order to feed Reptilinks. That's not efficient. I could just buy one mouse, puree it and coat all my Reptilinks at one time, but, before I resort to that, I think I'll try simply waiting until he's positively ravenous before feeding him.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

...However, I don't want to keep buying mice in order to feed Reptilinks. That's not efficient...

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It's not efficient nor does it "save" any mice (for those who prefer that aspect). From what I've read, Reptilinks have always had acceptance problems with many or most snakes, which is why I've never bothered trying them on any of mine. I do understand why you'd like to make it work though, so I hope you can manage to do so. Either way, I'm glad you're sharing your experience here.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

It's not efficient nor does it "save" any mice (for those who prefer that aspect). From what I've read, Reptilinks have always had acceptance problems with many or most snakes, which is why I've never bothered trying them on any of mine. I do understand why you'd like to make it work though, so I hope you can manage to do so. Either way, I'm glad you're sharing your experience here.

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I'm confident that I will eventually succeed in the transition. I know of others with Children's pythons that have. My experience has made me more reticent to recommend them to others with snakes. Lizards seem to be more willing to take them, and I think they are a great idea if you have an omnivore that won't eat its veggies.

I've always been skeptical over getting a snake to eat Reptilinks. When they're used to eating whole, "unmodified" prey as a rule, always seemed like more hassle than its worth unless the meat involved is very specific (like frogs for a hognose) or the snake in question will eat anything you offer it. Compared to lizards which are more willing to eat anything they come across regardless of form.

@ Homebody- As I say, I've never tried offering them, but aren't the Reptilinks also a different texture than an actual rodent? I'm guessing they're more dense & stiff, & less flexible & soft- so maybe that's part of the problem too? Snakes go by both scent & sense of touch. Of course if they were too soft, they'd probably fall apart too, since they're a composite?

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

I've always been skeptical over getting a snake to eat Reptilinks. When they're used to eating whole, "unmodified" prey as a rule, always seemed like more hassle than its worth unless the meat involved is very specific (like frogs for a hognose) or the snake in question will eat anything you offer it. Compared to lizards which are more willing to eat anything they come across regardless of form.

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Whether feeding Reptilinks is more hassle than it's worth boils down to whether feeding a variety of prey is healthier than feeding only mice. I'm taking it, pretty much, on faith that it is. If it is healthier, then it's easier to argue that the hassle is worth it.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

@ Homebody- As I say, I've never tried offering them, but aren't the Reptilinks also a different texture than an actual rodent? I'm guessing they're more dense & stiff, & less flexible & soft- so maybe that's part of the problem too? Snakes go by both scent & sense of touch. Of course if they were too soft, they'd probably fall apart too, since they're a composite?

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No. Reptilinks are pretty soft once thawed and they don't have bones, intact ones anyway. I think it comes down to scent. Snakes have to be taught to recognize the Reptilink scent as food.

At Wiggles's quarterly weigh in, he tipped that scales at a bruising 225 grams. That's 38 grams more than last quarter. That's a bit of a pleasant surprise for me. He only grew 23 grams at his last weigh in after recording previous gains of 44 and 39 grams. I thought his growth was slowing down, but I guess not.

Sadly, the news isn't all good. According to serpwidgets, he shrunk two inches (31.79 - 29.9) since the last time I measured him on 10/17/22 (post #180).:tears:
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/PdNtRWU.jpg

I've never used Serpwidgets, but I don't think he actually shrunk- could it be that's the part of his body (in pic above) that's behind something else that didn't get included?

Great on the weight gain! Not as cool on shrinking, Widget!

I think serpwidgets has some margin for error, but stranger things have happened, right?

No. Wiggles didn't shrink. I screwed up taking the picture. In the picture above, the ruler is closer to the camera than the snake is. That makes it look relatively larger. Our brains understand this. The computer's brain doesn't. So, if you use Serpwidget to get a length on your snake, you need to make sure that the snake and the ruler are the same distance from the camera, as I did when I first tried Serpwidget (pic below).
https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/Q4eRgpM.png

Too bad he didn't shrink...you could have marketed that trick to dieters everywhere, lol.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Too bad he didn't shrink...you could have marketed that trick to dieters everywhere, lol.

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"This snake shrunk three inches in one week with this one simple trick. Veterinarians HATE him!!!"

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Originally Posted by Snagrio

"This snake shrunk three inches in one week with this one simple trick. Veterinarians HATE him!!!"

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:rofl: That would come in very handy to keep snakes from outgrowing their enclosures (or their humans, lol).

Wiggles took his Reptilink tonight. It's been two weeks, so he was good and hungry. I tried feeding the Reptilink unscented. He was interested. He kept coming back to it, but wouldn't take it. I tried rubbing it on a hopper to scent it. He still didn't take it. Then, I tried dipping the link in hot water. Curiously, that did the trick. I'm encouraged that he didn't require me to scent the link with mouse guts. That's progress.

I think the key factor is hunger. The hungrier he is the less he's going to care what the link smells like or what temperature it is. I may wait three weeks next time to see if he'll take the link unscented.

How big does your snake's hide need to be?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSEbm3HButY
Answer: Just big enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSEbm3HButY

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Originally Posted by Homebody

How big does your snake's hide need to be?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSEbm3HButY
Answer: Just big enough.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSEbm3HButY

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:rofl:So we can just save space by storing our books in the snake enclosure, or putting doors on our bookshelves?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:rofl:So we can just save space by storing our books in the snake enclosure, or putting doors on our bookshelves?

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I don't think Wiggles would mind. He hung out in that spot all evening.

I've had a few snakes that were similarly drawn to the scholarly pursuits in print- I was unable to discern if they preferred fiction or non-fiction. :D I think they all agree on being "snug". :snake:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I've had a few snakes that were similarly drawn to the scholarly pursuits in print- I was unable to discern if they preferred fiction or non-fiction. :D I think they all agree on being "snug". :snake:

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Well, he better enjoy it while it lasts. The day he takes a dump on one of my wife's books his library card's getting revoked.

I scented a cardboard box with a Reptilink and put it in Wiggles's enclosure. Snakes are wary of unfamiliar things. I hope that prolonged exposure to the Reptilinks scent will reduce his fear so that he will more readily feed on them. After I put the box in his enclosure, I went to wash my hands. When I returned, Wiggles was already poking his head into the box.

It's been two weeks since he fed, so I know he's hungry. I'll carefully observe his behavior this week for signs that he's truly ravenous. Hopefully, ravenous and familiarized with the scent, he'll take his Reptilink unscented.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I scented a cardboard box with a Reptilink and put it in Wiggles's enclosure. Snakes are wary of unfamiliar things. I hope that prolonged exposure to the Reptilinks scent will reduce his fear so that he will more readily feed on them. After I put the box in his enclosure, I went to wash my hands. When I returned, Wiggles was already poking his head into the box.

It's been two weeks since he fed, so I know he's hungry. I'll carefully observe his behavior this week for signs that he's truly ravenous. Hopefully, ravenous and familiarized with the scent, he'll take his Reptilink unscented.

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That's a good idea, I hope it works. :gj:

I got a corrected length on Wiggles. He currently measure 32.6 inches. So, while he gained 38 grams (17% of his total) last quarter, he only grew only 0.81 inches (2.5%). Simply put, Wiggles is chunking out.

https://i.imgur.com/2kvBPGe.png

Doesn't look chunky, though. I think his length-wise growth is just slowing down & he's finally able to fill out a bit. Typically young snakes look skinny for some time, because they keep adding length.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I scented a cardboard box with a Reptilink and put it in Wiggles's enclosure. Snakes are wary of unfamiliar things. I hope that prolonged exposure to the Reptilinks scent will reduce his fear so that he will more readily feed on them. After I put the box in his enclosure, I went to wash my hands. When I returned, Wiggles was already poking his head into the box.

It's been two weeks since he fed, so I know he's hungry. I'll carefully observe his behavior this week for signs that he's truly ravenous. Hopefully, ravenous and familiarized with the scent, he'll take his Reptilink unscented.

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I hope this works as well. However, does this have him on edge/hungry all the time now. Is he in food mode all the time? I wouldn't want to go in my boas tanks if they smelled rat!

Good luck with this experiment and keep us posted.

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Originally Posted by dakski

However, does this have him on edge/hungry all the time now. Is he in food mode all the time?

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No. I only leave it in there for a few hours. I want him to become familiar with the scent, not sick of it.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Doesn't look chunky, though. I think his length-wise growth is just slowing down & he's finally able to fill out a bit. Typically young snakes look skinny for some time, because they keep adding length.

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I'm hoping he tops out at 3 ft. That's the length of his enclosure and I want him to continue to be able to stretch out in there.

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Originally Posted by Homebody

I'm hoping he tops out at 3 ft. That's the length of his enclosure and I want him to continue to be able to stretch out in there.

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Snakes never really "top out" but their growth slows way down as adults. Only time will tell. ;)

Success! Tonight, for the first time, Wiggles took his Reptilink unscented. At first, I tried to give it to him warmed with a hairdryer. I thought that would be easier than warming it with warm water. No bowl to wash. He took it, but later dropped it. I promptly warmed it in water and he took it no problem. I waited three weeks this time to ensure he'd be good and hungry. Next time, I see if he'll take it after only two weeks.

That's great- he's coming right along on these.

I accidentally I left Wiggles's enclosure open, for like, 24 hours. Fortunately, he is still in there. Man! That could have been so bad.

Wiggles's enclosure open:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/2c4iUdP.jpg

Wiggles's enclosure closed:

https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/szkkumX.jpg

So, you can see how that could happen, right?

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Originally Posted by Homebody

...So, you can see how that could happen, right?

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Yes. Well, at least he's not venomous- :O You need to find a way so you don't do that again, & you're very creative- you just need to do it. ;)

I think you got lucky buddy.

I have locks on my tanks...not just to keep snakes in, but the keys won't come out unless the door(s) are locked. That way I know the door(s) are locked when there are no keys in them. Just an added precaution. I know that doesn't help you now, but might help others looking to build tanks etc.

What might help you is to a piece of tape on the door. Something that you see when the door is closed to confirm it's closed. If it's a slide opening or front opening door this will work ether way.

Alternatively, if front opening, put a piece of fabric on the front of the door - a strip - taped to the door. When the door is open, it will hang and when closed, it will be in the middle.

Just trying to think of ideas. I'd hate for you to lose Wiggles!

I agree- if you don't use locks as David suggested, it can be something very simple- like bright (so they catch your attention) green & red 3" x 5" cards in a holder to signal that it's open or closed. I'd hate to see you lose this snake- so many dangerous things in houses for a loose snake, & finding them is no picnic either.

I appreciate your suggestions. They would certainly help me to distinguish whether my enclosure is open or closed and that is what I blamed this incident on. However, upon reflection, I think my problem is bigger than that. This is just another incident when I lost or almost lost Wiggles while allowing him to free roam. So, going forward, Wiggles's activity sessions will be confined to an activity station.

The station I have now is 6 ft tall and sits in the middle of my living room, so I'm unlikely to forget to put the station and Wiggles away. He's on there now. See?


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...om/y25QxxU.jpg

I'm also thinking about getting a small pet tent, like this one, to use an an activity station. Hopefully, between the two of them, Wiggles will get the enrichment that he needs without the danger of getting lost.