Big News Coming Tomorrow!

Subbing :)

Subscribing.. this has been one of the most interesting threads I have read on here in awhile.

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Originally Posted by Family Reptiles

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...rt_on_eggs.jpg

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Hey,that's not a desert!!!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing025.gif

Kinda looks like my 1600gr female desert! I think mine is brighter. Going to have to shoot a pic to compare.

IMHO, I don't think the OP prematurely jumped the gun. He purchased a citrus desert that ended up giving him eggs, who would not want to share that excitement, I know I would've done the same thing.

Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.

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Originally Posted by Family Reptiles

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...rt_on_eggs.jpg

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Thanks for sharing, do you have any more info on her?(sorry if I missed info, long thread)

Once upon a time a wild Ball Python produced a freak baby, a Ball Python with an odd pattern. Not sure how many thousands of Ball Pythons were produced before that happened.

Once upon a time a Desert Ball Python produced a viable cutch. Not sure how many hundreds of Ball Pythons had to die before that happened.

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Originally Posted by rabernet

perhaps it's your delivery that needs work.

It's fine to disagree, and we all get it now from almost every single post here that you are a proud card carrying non-sheeple. :)

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x2

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Originally Posted by Family Reptiles

This is Mike from Family Reptiles here in Lakeland, FL. Congratulations on your Desert clutch. Scott and Elizabeth, the owners of Family Reptiles, also have a viable clutch of eggs from a Desert female currently in the incubator and it is due to pip in a couple weeks. We also know of a few other breeders that have viable desert clutches and we are all trying to compare notes as to what factors may have been involved in the success. If you are willing, Scott would love to chat.

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Hey, I'm excited for you guys! I got my cinny female from Scott, and I couldn't be happier.

To the OP: SUBBING. I have to know when this clutch hatches! Good luck.

To everyone arguing: Nah, not gonna get involved. Just gonna sit back and wait for pictures of baby snakes.

Praying to the Ball Gods that everyone's desert clutches come out good!

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Originally Posted by jben

IMHO, I don't think the OP prematurely jumped the gun. He purchased a citrus desert that ended up giving him eggs, who would not want to share that excitement, I know I would've done the same thing.

Sent from my EVO Design using Tapatalk 2.

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Anyone on here would have done the same thing. Like I said before, he paid $1900 for the snake. I'm sure he wasn't questioning whether or not it was a desert. He might be questioning it now, but that's a different discussion.

Routing for the snake and the op and I also would have waited until the eggs hatched. This would have been less of an issue if you already had the evidence to back it up with. There are less disputes and nahsayers when all the proof you need is right there. Which is why most people working on projects and proving animals out keep it hush hush until they have the offspring to verify it. Hopefully lesson learned for some, some times a little patience goes a long way.

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...t_female_2.jpg

This thread:

Tease. Anticipation. Tease
Excitement.
Cautious optimism.
Pessimism. Pessimism. Pessimism.
Optimistic confirmation.
Speculative inquisition.
Aggressive speculative statement.
Rebuttal. Rebuttal. Rebuttal.
Curious optimism.

Another picture of the female on eggs. Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male. She is back on food and doing very well. Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13. Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.

Interesting stuff for sure. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread ;) I'm not gonna get my hopes up about what it might mean for the future of Deserts though.

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Originally Posted by Family Reptiles

Another picture of the female on eggs. Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male. She is back on food and doing very well. Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13. Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.

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Who'd you buy that female from?

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Originally Posted by MasonC2K

This thread:

Tease. Anticipation. Tease
Excitement.
Cautious optimism.
Pessimism. Pessimism. Pessimism.
Optimistic confirmation.
Speculative inquisition.
Aggressive speculative statement.
Rebuttal. Rebuttal. Rebuttal.
Curious optimism.

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Haha I love this! Very true and I might be in some of that. :)

I thought Family Reptiles sounded familiar. They had the table next to us at the Daytona show.

Chad told me today that he spent a couple of hours at the show chatting them up all about the Desert project and his breeding strategies. Temps, feeding, cycling, weights, pairing, etc.

I don't know if that paid a key role in their success, but I am glad to see it!

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Originally Posted by Family Reptiles

Another picture of the female on eggs. Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male. She is back on food and doing very well. Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13. Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.

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Thanks for posting, in an earlier post you had mentioned other breeders with deserts on eggs. You think it would be possible to get them to post on this thread as well? Are the other breeders also in Florida?

Would be nice to see some additional positive news. Good luck, it is going to be a long 25 day wait.

Robyn, yes we were. That was the first show we did.

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Originally Posted by bubblz

Routing for the snake and the op and I also would have waited until the eggs hatched. This would have been less of an issue if you already had the evidence to back it up with. There are less disputes and nahsayers when all the proof you need is right there. Which is why most people working on projects and proving animals out keep it hush hush until they have the offspring to verify it. Hopefully lesson learned for some, some times a little patience goes a long way.

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Lesson learned to a degree, 1/3 - Female Desert laying and living = complete, 2/3 - Viable eggs in incubator = complete, 3/3 - :snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake: hatchlings = counting the days. :D

Glass 2/3 full in my opinion and glad to share this with you. :) Looking forward to the news from the others as well.

~ Joe

I'm pretty sure the entire BP world is watching this. Good luck!

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Originally Posted by Family Reptiles

Another picture of the female on eggs. Sorry I didn't add a message to the picture I just posted. She was bred to a pinstripe male. She is back on food and doing very well. Eggs are due to pip around 8/2/13. Certainly no guarantee that everything is going to go perfectly, but so far it is looking good.

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I wish you the best of luck, hopefully you will hit some nice Desert pins

- - - Updated - - -

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Originally Posted by Witchbane

Lesson learned to a degree, 1/3 - Female Desert laying and living = complete, 2/3 - Viable eggs in incubator = complete, 3/3 - :snake::snake::snake::snake::snake::snake: hatchlings = counting the days. :D

Glass 2/3 full in my opinion and glad to share this with you. :) Looking forward to the news from the others as well.

~ Joe

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All the best Joe..good luck

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Originally Posted by Robyn@SYR

I thought Family Reptiles sounded familiar. They had the table next to us at the Daytona show.

Chad told me today that he spent a couple of hours at the show chatting them up all about the Desert project and his breeding strategies. Temps, feeding, cycling, weights, pairing, etc.

I don't know if that paid a key role in their success, but I am glad to see it!

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If there was a strategy that may have played a role in this being successful I think it should be shared. Hence my earlier question about anything being different with the care. Family Reptiles was there anything different than normal? And the questions about who produced your desert was not answered nor were the questions about these supposed other breeders. I did not look at the time stamps of the posts so it may just be you have not had time to respond. Im mostly curious where all these deserts came from because it would make most sense to me if they were all from the same line. That would also be good to know becaus that could prevent unnecessary harm to animals that are maybe not viable.

To everyone,
Please be patient. Given the challenges with Deserts we want to ensure that the information we are giving is as accurate and beneficial as possible. The details wil be given in due time, but we feel it necessary to collaborate with the other breeders that have viable eggs from a desert female. The original purpose of my initial post was twofold. One was to make contact with the OP for collaboration and to let him know that someone else also has had a female lay. The other reason was to let everyone else know that there was more than one female that has laid good eggs as well.

The details of who the other breeders are not being shared yet mainly because we do not have their go ahead on giving that info out. Their eggs are a couple of weeks behind ours and I imagine they want to wait and see what happens first. As I mentioned, even with our eggs only having a couple of weeks before they are due, there are no guarantees. As witnessed in this thread there are a wide range of beliefs as to when the announcement of viable Desert eggs should be made. We are somewhere in the middle on this belief.

Efforts are being made to determine if the females have come from a common line, or if temperatures were a factor, or age, or weight, or whatever thing or combination of things may have contributed to the success.

If this all works out I would love to see the genetics of the desert proven out and see if a super is even possible

I read some people stating that the OP should not have shown or announced this until after the eggs hatched, but up until this point, have we ever had pictures of a desert on good eggs? I don't recall ever seeing that. Always slugs.

Wishing the best of luck for healthy clutches to the OP and Family Reptiles. Anxious to see what comes out of the eggs.

Good luck to all the people that have Desert clutches waiting. I would definately love to hear more. More important are these all from the same line and/or breeder. If so looking forward to see if these females currently laying maybe had been incubated at a differant temperature/humidity then the "norm" when they had been in eggs themselves. It's been said by many that the original pastel desert looks differant then usual which could have had something to do with the way they had been incubated when they where in the egg.

I would like to make a few comments here if I may...

Identity of the snake notwithstanding I think people need to consider a few things before making the claim that this is an absolute game changer for the morph. But first, a small point of clarification -- I do not know why everyone is under the impression that these eggs will not hatch. The issues with Desert females looks to be associated with the development/progress of the eggs inside the female. Once the eggs are out there should be no issues with them.


Now, on to this specific incident.

There is an established trend line of female Deserts having issues. And here we now have a couple incidents of a female Desert laying a viable clutch. How is this unequivocal proof that the Desert female issue has been forever solved?

Let me phrase it back to you this way. What is the rate at which Caramels kink? What is the rate that SuperCinnys duckbill or kink? What is the rate that SuperLessers bug-eye? Just shooting from the hip I would guess these numbers to be about 40%, 15% and 5% respectively. Flip side being that 60%, 85% and 95% of these morphs are perfectly fine. So, because 60% of Caramels do not kink does that me we all go around saying that the problem of Caramel kinking has been solved? Of course not, it would be utterly ridiculous and foolish. So why are people using these couple Desert females as "proof" that Desert females have been "cured"? It is a haphazardous and dangerous stance to take.

Are there Desert females out there that could potentially have a viable clutch? Certainly. Do these few viable female Desert mean that all Desert females are now viable? Not hardly. Given the obvious trend line, is it prudent to breed female Deserts? That is for you to decide on your own. My personal feeling is that it is too great a risk and as such I will never add the Desert gene to my collection (by the same token I think the risk of kinking in Caramels is too great and so to I will not add that gene to my collection.) But that is just my opinion, you can do with your snakes whatever you wish.


Lastly, I have seen a number of people allude to the "cure" for the Desert issue being stacking more mutations on to Desert. This simply will not work. Does adding BlackPastel to Albino "cure" the animal from being an Albino? Does adding Mojave to Hypo "cure" the animal from being Hypo?

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Originally Posted by asplundii

Lastly, I have seen a number of people allude to the "cure" for the Desert issue being stacking more mutations on to Desert. This simply will not work. Does adding BlackPastel to Albino "cure" the animal from being an Albino? Does adding Mojave to Hypo "cure" the animal from being Hypo?

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You were making some intelligent head way until you equated the problems laying and forming eggs to a morph.

Oh, yeah, I just picked up a super hypo, enchi, black pastel, cantlayeggs female.

Now, had you said "does stacking more genes on spiders remove the wobble?" I would agree entirely with you. However, you didn't.



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I agree with what travis said. I have faith that those eggs will hatch because problems with desert females don't really have anything to do with the eggs. I was under the impression that it was problems with the females themselves, as he said. My point was that I don't think the dam carries the desert gene, so I don't think we'll see any desert babies when they hatch. I also am having trouble seeing desert in the snake that Family Reptiles posted. I'll ask again, where was the desert that Family Reptiles has, purchased from?

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

You were making some intelligent head way until you equated the problems laying and forming eggs to a morph.

Oh, yeah, I just picked up a super hypo, enchi, black pastel, cantlayeggs female.

Now, had you said "does stacking more genes on spiders remove the wobble?" I would agree entirely with you. However, you didn't.



Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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Why couldn't there be an issue related to the mutation of genes that make a desert what it is that causes problems with forming or laying eggs?? In theory it could be just like the spider, except the mutations don't affect the central nervous system they affect the reproductive system.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Why couldn't there be an issue related to the mutation of genes that make a desert what it is that causes problems with forming or laying eggs?? In theory it could be just like the spider, except the mutations don't affect the central nervous system they affect the reproductive system.

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You're furthering my argument. For spiders, and desert females, it is a defect associated with the morph; it is not a morph itself.

Apples to oranges, is what you're doing.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

You're furthering my argument. For spiders, and desert females, it is a defect associated with the morph; it is not a morph itself.

Apples to oranges, is what you're doing.

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Im not so sure, my genetics knowledge is limited so asplundii could probably better explain it?! but how do we know that its a defect associated with the morph, as in, a mutated gene or, morph, causes an affect on something else, or is it the a mutated gene itself that is the issue, as in the morph itself is the issue. But I suppose that might be what you were getting at with apples and oranges, semantics maybe. As in are we defining a morph purely by what we see or are we defining it by the one or more mutated genes it carries?

I really do not know if I made any sense there...

I'm just saying that equating the inability to form or lay eggs to a morph such as hypo or anything else is not something you can do. It is not a morph, but a defect associated with a morph.

It's just not sound logic.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

I'm just saying that equating the inability to form or lay eggs to a morph such as hypo or anything else is not something you can do. It is not a morph, but a defect associated with a morph.

It's just not sound logic.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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On a scientific and genetic level it is actually possible. You are making the assumption that the protein chain that effects the pattern of a "morph" will never have an effect on any other functions of the animal's development. Just because a genetic mutation effects the pattern or color of an animal does not automatically mean it stops there. It could also effect the animal on a neurological level or in a multitude of other ways. Just because it isn't always the case, doesn't mean it is never the case. That being said, it is possible that a visual morph can also carry a secondary issue, and the expression or severity of that issue may vary.

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Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

On a scientific and genetic level it is actually possible. You are making the assumption that the protein chain that effects the pattern of a "morph" will never have an effect on any other functions of the animal's development. Just because a genetic mutation effects the pattern or color of an animal does not automatically mean it stops there. It could also effect the animal on a neurological level or in a multitude of other ways. Just because it isn't always the case, doesn't mean it is never the case. That being said, it is possible that a visual morph can also carry a secondary issue, and the expression or severity of that issue may vary.

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Thats a way better formulated way of saying what I was trying to say.

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Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

On a scientific and genetic level it is actually possible. You are making the assumption that the protein chain that effects the pattern of a "morph" will never have an effect on any other functions of the animal's development. Just because a genetic mutation effects the pattern or color of an animal does not automatically mean it stops there. It could also effect the animal on a neurological level or in a multitude of other ways. Just because it isn't always the case, doesn't mean it is never the case. That being said, it is possible that a visual morph can also carry a secondary issue, and the expression or severity of that issue may vary.

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Doesn't that also imply that you could somehow create an animal that is not desert at all, or spider at all, and have the issues those two have?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

Who'd you buy that female from?

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I'll ask again, where was the desert that Family Reptiles has, purchased from?

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Mine is Stan's line.http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/s...aughing021.gif

If I can get my head out of my &ss, I'll post a pic of mine for comparison. LOL

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Doesn't that also imply that you could somehow create an animal that is not desert at all, or spider at all, and have the issues those two have?

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I don't see why not; it would just be less likely that they would surface so rapidly in captivity because we tend to only exploit traits that change the appearance of an animal visually. Any negative traits that are tied into a visual mutation would be discovered a lot faster.

Think about traits like scaleless where it is more than the pattern, but also the physiology of the snake that is changing.

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Originally Posted by TJ_Burton

I don't see why not; it would just be less likely that they would surface so rapidly in captivity because we tend to only exploit traits that change the appearance of an animal visually.
Think about traits like scaleless where it is more than the pattern, but also the physiology of the snake that is changing.

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There in lies my query though, we don't exploit traits that arent visually appealing. Meaning that these problems these morphs have are defecs associated with morphological defects, and not likely to be stand alone. They're tied, is what I'm getting at.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

There in lies my query though, we don't exploit traits that arent visually appealing. Meaning that these problems these morphs have are defecs associated with morphological defects, and not likely to be stand alone. They're tied, is what I'm getting at.

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So what your getting at is that its like spider, it cant be bred out, no change in temp or otherwise will fix it, its just part of that morph, regardless of what is going on genetically to cause the issue?

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

So what your getting at is that its like spider, it cant be bred out, no change in temp or otherwise will fix it, its just part of that morph, regardless of what is going on genetically to cause the issue?

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Yes, that's exactly it. Though the wobble and egg problems are not a morph like hypo or anything, like you tried to equate them to in the begin.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

There in lies my query though, we don't exploit traits that arent visually appealing. Meaning that these problems these morphs have are defecs associated with morphological defects, and not likely to be stand alone. They're tied, is what I'm getting at.

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I would have to believe they are tied to one another. For example the spider gene will always, to some capacity, effect the snake on a neurological level.
However, the level of expression will vary. Some spiders wobble like crazy, while others are reasonably normal but have the odd quirk or tick. The issue is nevertheless there.

So I guess my point is that IF the desert gene is directly tied to the ability of females producing viable clutches without complication (which is possible), that some females may still be able to produce based on that reproductive issue having a much lower expression in the snake.

At the end of the day it is all speculation until scientifically proven one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Kodieh

Yes, that's exactly it. Though the wobble and egg problems are not a morph like hypo or anything, like you tried to equate them to in the begin.

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Lol, im pretty sure were just arguing semantics, Im just defining morph differently than you, but were on the same page.

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Originally Posted by eatgoodfood

Lol, im pretty sure were just arguing semantics, Im just defining morph differently than you, but were on the same page.

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Yep, I realized that right away which is why I changed how we were referring to it ;)

i always thought it strange that as a community, ball pythons folks decided desert females infertile. i understand that up till this point, 100% of breeding attempts failed - but hear me out...

where did stan's desert come from ? where did pete's come from ? some past or present wild and free snakes out there created them. are we to believe in the wilds of ghana only male desert ball pythons exist / existed ?

to create a desert ball python, you need the desert gene. no different than a pastel or a spider. you cannot use non-desert gene snakes to create a desert offspring. the same logic follows for pastels, spiders, etc.

i suppose an argument could be made that, sure desert clutches are made, but in the wilds of africa, the females go about their business and die of egg binding or old age having never created offspring and the males crawl around fertilizing non-desert local gals. but i find that a really diluted argument - somewhere in africa, female deserts that lay viable clutches either exist, or existed. these original animals came from somewhere.

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Originally Posted by Mike41793

I also am having trouble seeing desert in the snake that Family Reptiles posted. I'll ask again, where was the desert that Family Reptiles has, purchased from?

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For what it's worth I do not believe the female posted on eggs by Family Reptiles is a Desert either.

The colour and cleanliness of the pattern isn't bright or clean enough, there are too many alien heads, there is no white rising up from the belly to meet the pattern and the eye stripes should be wider. I know that she has just laid, is unlikely to have eaten for months and will not be looking at her best but I still see no sign of Desert in that animal at all.

This is a perfect example showing all the points I mention on an adult female Desert at 1900g. I hope everyone, even those with no experience whatsoever, can see the difference.

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/...920g_11-10.jpg

The Citrus Pastel shown by the original poster on eggs looks very, very much like a Citrus Desert and I could completely understand anybody making the mistake of selling it as such but as above I do not believe that it carries the Desert gene. The deciding factor being the faint speckling of darker pattern along the back of the animal as a hatchling, which Desert completely wipes out leaving them perfectly clean until they start putting on some size. A great post has already been made in this thread pointing out the key differences and 'markers' for it not carrying the Desert gene and I have nothing more to add to that. It is undoubtedly a beautiful animal and one of the most exceptional Pastels of any line that I have seen but that's what Citrus Pastels are famous for, being at the top end of the spectrum.

Obviously the day will come when these eggs hatch, ( there's no reason why they shouldn't) and there may be little baby Deserts in either clutch proving me wrong and that's absolutely fine. I will stand corrected and gladly admit it. But today with the information provided thus far, it is my belief that a Desert female is yet to lay a fertile clutch of eggs. Which is a huge shame as it's incredibly beautiful morph both on its own and in many, many combos.

i think it's good to remain skeptical till these clutches hatch. i have no opinion on the citrus pastel desert as that is such a hard call - my experience with my own deserts, is the occasional snake can have quite a few alien heads - mostly, they are very clean offspring, but you can hatch out ones that look like this gal below, who in this pic is just under 400 grams. i do wish the eye stripe was wider on family reptiles' animal.
http://market.kingsnake.com/image/1405455.jpg

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Originally Posted by paulbuckley

i think it's good to remain skeptical till these clutches hatch. i have no opinion on the citrus pastel desert as that is such a hard call - my experience with my own deserts, is the occasional snake can have quite a few alien heads - mostly, they are very clean offspring, but you can hatch out ones that look like this gal below, who in this pic is just under 400 grams. i do wish the eye stripe was wider on family reptiles' animal.
http://market.kingsnake.com/image/1405455.jpg

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I have to agree on the eye stripe comment...But..I beleive Family reptiles have posted in good faith along with the OP..We will see.

Okay here is a comparison!

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Originally Posted by Family Reptiles

http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...rt_on_eggs.jpg

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Originally Posted by Tomrhargreaves

http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/data/...920g_11-10.jpg.

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Here's mine.(Stan's line) She's just under 1600gm,and just shed.
http://ball-pythons.net/gallery/file...sertfemale.jpg